[time-nuts] Fast Rise/Fall Time Pulser

Discussion:

Larry McDavid

2017-10-10 19:19:42 UTC

There has been discussion recently about generating fast rise/fall time
pulses by various means. Here is a link to a Leo Bodnar device that will
provide <40 ps rise/fall time, 50% duty cycle, 10 MHz pulses:

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295

This is built on a small PWB with integral BNC connector, powered by 5
vdc through a USB B connector; a trigger output is provided. Price is US$68.

I've ordered one of these for testing.

Is anyone here using one of these?

--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Brooke Clarke

2017-10-10 19:42:59 UTC

Permalink

Hi Larry:

How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or a Step Recovery Diode.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------

There has been discussion recently about generating fast rise/fall time pulses by various means. Here is a link to a
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295
This is built on a small PWB with integral BNC connector, powered by 5 vdc through a USB B connector; a trigger output
is provided. Price is US$68.
I've ordered one of these for testing.
Is anyone here using one of these?

Adrian Godwin

2017-10-10 20:11:09 UTC

Permalink

I expected it to be a variant of the Jim Williams avalanche pulse
generator, but one of the photos shows a part marked AJK AAA that appears
to be the active component.

Loading Image...

Post by Brooke Clarke
How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or a
Step Recovery Diode.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
-------- Original Message --------

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Magnus Danielson

2017-10-10 20:14:09 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

Post by Brooke Clarke
How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or
a Step Recovery Diode.

Looking at the pictures, it seems like the surface mounted chip marked
AJK AAA is the driver-chip that connects through a capacitor over to the
centerlead of the BNC output.

Some form of driver, and setup such that amplitude scale can be controlled.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Bruce Griffiths

2017-10-10 20:20:06 UTC

Permalink

It appears to be merely an ECL comparator;
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/

Bruce

Post by Magnus Danielson
Hi,

Post by Brooke Clarke
How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or
a Step Recovery Diode.

Looking at the pictures, it seems like the surface mounted chip marked
AJK AAA is the driver-chip that connects through a capacitor over to the
centerlead of the BNC output.
Some form of driver, and setup such that amplitude scale can be controlled.
Cheers,
Magnus
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Magnus Danielson

2017-10-10 20:25:18 UTC

Permalink

This one, if you read what is written there:

http://www.analog.com/en/products/linear-products/comparators/adcmp572.html#product-overview

Cheers,
Magnus

Post by Bruce Griffiths
It appears to be merely an ECL comparator;
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/
Bruce

Post by Magnus Danielson
Hi,

Post by Brooke Clarke
How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or
a Step Recovery Diode.

Looking at the pictures, it seems like the surface mounted chip marked
AJK AAA is the driver-chip that connects through a capacitor over to the
centerlead of the BNC output.
Some form of driver, and setup such that amplitude scale can be controlled.
Cheers,
Magnus
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Gerhard Hoffmann

2017-10-10 21:46:16 UTC

Permalink

Post by Magnus Danielson
http://www.analog.com/en/products/linear-products/comparators/adcmp572.html#product-overview

I have used a ADCMP580 comparator on a home etched board

with semi rigid for the outputs. This is what I got from it:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N07/33305853110/in/album-72157662535945536/
I have also experimented with BAT15 Schottky limiters to get less rise
time at the cost of less amplitude.

That has been replaced by a 54754A differential TDR in the mean time :-)

The scope knows its own risetimes and can calculate them away, at least
somewhat.

BNC and 40 ps rise time don't go together well.

Cheers, Gerhard

Post by Magnus Danielson

Post by Bruce Griffiths
It appears to be merely an ECL comparator;
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/
Bruce

On 11 October 2017 at 09:14 Magnus Danielson
Hi,

Post by Brooke Clarke
How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or
a Step Recovery Diode.

Looking at the pictures, it seems like the surface mounted chip marked
AJK AAA is the driver-chip that connects through a capacitor over to the
centerlead of the BNC output.
Some form of driver, and setup such that amplitude scale can be controlled.
Cheers,
Magnus
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paul swed

2017-10-10 20:09:31 UTC

Permalink

I looked at the picture and I can see now that the sma is the pulse and the
BNC is the output trigger. Pretty interesting for the cost.
I then did a search on google for fast pulse generation and a analog
devices solution came up that delivers 50ps and actually shorter. I doubt
its one and the same method. But look forward to other comments.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

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Bob Albert via time-nuts

2017-10-10 20:08:38 UTC

Permalink

I built one, and later saw a simpler one. Very fast, very simple. I think my total cost was a few cents.
Google TDR DIY pulser. One from an old magazine (Jim Williams) looks pretty good, using collector breakdown of a 2N2369. The one I made used one IC and a few resistors.

Bob

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:02 PM, Brooke Clarke <***@pacific.net> wrote:

Hi Larry:

How does it work.
When I was working with microwave semis it was either a tunnel diode or a Step Recovery Diode.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------

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Andrew E Mileski

2017-10-11 08:39:32 UTC

Permalink

From its creator's forum posts, it appears to be a high slew rate
comparator, that once "triggered" will pass the next pulse of an
asynchronous 10 MHz square wave clock (2.5 ppm).

The first version used a micro for setting the threshold voltage. The
micro was removed in the following generation.

It is for generating fast edges for equipment (bandwidth) testing, not for
precision timing.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I was disappointed with the limited
information I could dig-up.

~~
Andrew E. Mileski

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Larry McDavid

2017-10-11 00:11:03 UTC

Permalink

Mine arrived today. Alas, it uses a USB B connector instead of a more
common USB mini or micro; I gotta get a cable.

Mine has the comparator IC marked only, "AJK BAA." Yes, this is an
Analog Devices ADCMP572 or ADCMP573 Ultrafast SiGe comparator. I'm not
sure which output configuration is used yet, but likely is the 572 with
CML output drivers.

The controller IC is a 18F25K50 PIC with integral USB. Level programming
software is available on the Leo Bodnar website for download.

The board was supplied with a test result data sheet from a Tektronix
CSA803A (website picture shows a SD30 40 GHz sampling head used) showing
the pulser rise time as 38.91 ps and the fall time as 33.20 ps with
about 950 mv P-P.

It's a lovely looking board; lots of thought went into the layout. I
can't tell if it is multi-layer. Now for that B cable...

Larry

Post by Larry McDavid
There has been discussion recently about generating fast rise/fall time
pulses by various means. Here is a link to a Leo Bodnar device that will
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295
This is built on a small PWB with integral BNC connector, powered by 5
vdc through a USB B connector; a trigger output is provided. Price is US$68.
I've ordered one of these for testing.
Is anyone here using one of these?
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)

Larry McDavid

2017-10-11 18:28:29 UTC

Permalink

The Leo Bodnar pulser output level is adjustable but at outputs higher
than some 1 v P-P the rise/fall times increase. I reported the ~0.95 v
P-P as what was reported on the datasheet for *my* pulser.

Ok, per Leo's August 7, 2017 post, the output device is a Maxim MAX3949.
Mine is marked, "AJK BAA." Does anyone know the origin or significance
of that marking?

Per Leo's August 5, 2017 post, the pulser fastest rise time occurs when
the output level is set to 820 mv and the scope reports 976 mvpp. That
is consistent with what is reported for my pulser on the supplied test
datasheet.

Why would you want to set the output level higher than that at which the
risetime is fastest? ~ 1 vpp seems enough.

Larry

Neither the Analog Devices nor the Maxim part (see below) data sheets
suggest the markings actually seen on the device used on the Leo Bodnar
pulser I received. As recently as July 8, 2017 Leo Bodnar described the
device as "based on 572 comparator from AD" in a posting on EEVblog.

The Maxim datasheet doesn't say anything about the product marking.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1275011/#msg1275011

One poster commented on the high pulse voltage of ±1 volt; that is not
correct. The Leo Bodnar pulser output is about 0.95 v P-P.

It's adjustable up to 1.2VPP into 50ohms, or 2.4VPP open circuit.
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295

Robert LaJeunesse

2017-10-11 18:34:32 UTC

Permalink

From https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/design/packaging/topmark/ the MAX3949 is marked "AJK". I suspect BAA is some sort of date code.

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast Rise/Fall Time Pulser
The Leo Bodnar pulser output level is adjustable but at outputs higher
than some 1 v P-P the rise/fall times increase. I reported the ~0.95 v
P-P as what was reported on the datasheet for *my* pulser.
Ok, per Leo's August 7, 2017 post, the output device is a Maxim MAX3949.
Mine is marked, "AJK BAA." Does anyone know the origin or significance
of that marking?
Per Leo's August 5, 2017 post, the pulser fastest rise time occurs when
the output level is set to 820 mv and the scope reports 976 mvpp. That
is consistent with what is reported for my pulser on the supplied test
datasheet.
Why would you want to set the output level higher than that at which the
risetime is fastest? ~ 1 vpp seems enough.
Larry

The Maxim datasheet doesn't say anything about the product marking.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1275011/#msg1275011

One poster commented on the high pulse voltage of ±1 volt; that is not
correct. The Leo Bodnar pulser output is about 0.95 v P-P.

It's adjustable up to 1.2VPP into 50ohms, or 2.4VPP open circuit.
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295

--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Leo Bodnar

2017-10-14 13:53:00 UTC

Permalink

Hi Andrew,

Post by Andrew E Mileski
From its creator's forum posts, it appears to be a high slew rate

It's not a high slew rate, it's a short risetime. There are better technologies if you are after high slewrate. Avalanche BJT pulser, for once.

Post by Andrew E Mileski
comparator,

It's not a comparator anymore, it's a laser diode driver for now.

Post by Andrew E Mileski
that once "triggered" will pass the next pulse of an asynchronous 10 MHz square wave clock (2.5 ppm).

It's not triggered. It runs at its own 10MHz pace and provides a copy (within few ns) of its pulse output at additional SMA connector for those who have sampling scopes that don't trigger off the main signal itself.

Post by Andrew E Mileski
The first version used a micro for setting the threshold voltage.

Micro never controlled the threshold voltage. First version used micro's internal oscillator for pulse train but jitter was so excessive that the only way to use sampling scopes was through delay line.

Post by Andrew E Mileski
The micro was removed in the following generation.

Micro is still there.

Post by Andrew E Mileski
It is for generating fast edges for equipment (bandwidth) testing, not for precision timing.

This one is spot on!

Post by Andrew E Mileski
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I was disappointed with the limited information I could dig-up.
~~
Andrew E. Mileski

Sorry for your disappointment. All the relevant information necessary for its use should be on the webpage. I am not hiding anything.
You don't really need knowledge of intricacies of its operation to use it and I appreciate your frustration with lack of design details.
However, I am happy to answer any questions.

The pulser is so simple that its use is a three-step process:

1) plug USB in
2) plug pulser into BNC scope input
3) sorry, there is no step three

Cheers
Leo

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