[time-nuts] Special connector for Symmetricom X72 rubidium standard

[Christoph Kopetzky]

Dear all time-nuts list members,

I am looking without any success for some Molex plugs (52660-2651) to
connect to my X72 time standard.
Molex told me that these connectors are obolete since 2010.
I made some recherches at the Molex competitors but all told me that
they do not have 1mm pitch connectors in
their program.
Is there anybody who can help me getting some of these connectors?

That would be very kind and you will set me happy again...

Best Regards

Chris

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[Mark Sims]

Symmetricom sold some interface boards for the X72. They are 0.32-ish inch thick PCB's with a dual sided edge tab pattern on them. The PCB edge tab will insert into the connector on the X72. The interface board for my X72's only breaks out 12 pins... a lot of Ebay X72's come with that 12 pin connector board... I think that they were pulls from some piece of equipment. My X72's only had 250 hours on them.

I have been thinking about laying out an X72 interface board that has the edge tab broken out to a standard 26 pin 0.1" pattern, a RS-232 inteface, BNC's for the 10 MHz, ACMOS output, 1PPS in, 1PPS output, etc. The board would also have a way to connect it to the SA22.

Lady Heather now talks to X72's (and probably X99's and SA22's). I have implemented a disciplining algorithm for use with X72s that have the older firmware that does not do disciplining... like probably 99% of the X72's out there. Symmetricom's code only seems to keep the 1PPS aligned with 300 ns. My code attempts to keep it within 100 ns.
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[Christopher Hoover]

I'm interested in a piece or two if you do this. Happy to review
schematics and layout, too. -- Christopher AI6KG

Post by Mark Sims
Symmetricom sold some interface boards for the X72. They are 0.32-ish
inch thick PCB's with a dual sided edge tab pattern on them. The PCB
edge tab will insert into the connector on the X72. The interface board
for my X72's only breaks out 12 pins... a lot of Ebay X72's come with that
12 pin connector board... I think that they were pulls from some piece of
equipment. My X72's only had 250 hours on them.
I have been thinking about laying out an X72 interface board that has the
edge tab broken out to a standard 26 pin 0.1" pattern, a RS-232 inteface,
BNC's for the 10 MHz, ACMOS output, 1PPS in, 1PPS output, etc. The board
would also have a way to connect it to the SA22.
Lady Heather now talks to X72's (and probably X99's and SA22's). I have
implemented a disciplining algorithm for use with X72s that have the older
firmware that does not do disciplining... like probably 99% of the X72's
out there. Symmetricom's code only seems to keep the 1PPS aligned with 300
ns. My code attempts to keep it within 100 ns.
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[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hello Mark,

thanks for your info.
Does your actual version 5.0 also support the X72 rubidium oscillator?
And if not could you please send me your modified version for the X72?

Thank you in advance and

kind Regards

Chris

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:15:16 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Special connector for Symmetricom X72 rubidium
standard
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Dear all time-nuts list members,
I am looking without any success for some Molex plugs (52660-2651) to
connect to my X72 time standard.
Molex told me that these connectors are obolete since 2010.
I made some recherches at the Molex competitors but all told me that
they do not have 1mm pitch connectors in
their program.
Is there anybody who can help me getting some of these connectors?
That would be very kind and you will set me happy again...
Best Regards
Chris
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:28:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Special connector for Symmetricom X72 rubidium
standard
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Symmetricom sold some interface boards for the X72. They are 0.32-ish inch thick PCB's with a dual sided edge tab pattern on them. The PCB edge tab will insert into the connector on the X72. The interface board for my X72's only breaks out 12 pins... a lot of Ebay X72's come with that 12 pin connector board... I think that they were pulls from some piece of equipment. My X72's only had 250 hours on them.
I have been thinking about laying out an X72 interface board that has the edge tab broken out to a standard 26 pin 0.1" pattern, a RS-232 inteface, BNC's for the 10 MHz, ACMOS output, 1PPS in, 1PPS output, etc. The board would also have a way to connect it to the SA22.
Lady Heather now talks to X72's (and probably X99's and SA22's). I have implemented a disciplining algorithm for use with X72s that have the older firmware that does not do disciplining... like probably 99% of the X72's out there. Symmetricom's code only seems to keep the 1PPS aligned with 300 ns. My code attempts to keep it within 100 ns.

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[Attila Kinali]

Moin,

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:15:16 +0200

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
I am looking without any success for some Molex plugs (52660-2651) to
connect to my X72 time standard.
Molex told me that these connectors are obolete since 2010.
I made some recherches at the Molex competitors but all told me that
they do not have 1mm pitch connectors in
their program.
Is there anybody who can help me getting some of these connectors?

From the drawing and from the pictures this looks like a variant
of the mini-centronics, or more precisely mini/micro D-ribbon connectors.

They have lost quite a bit of popularity with the demise of SCSI,
but there should be still some manufacturers building them.
I am not sure though, how many ever had the 1mm pitch one.

Attila Kinali

[Attila Kinali]

Re-moin,

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 14:01:02 +0200

I found one manufacturer which has nearly similar connectors in his
program: htk-jp.com
They have SDR and HDR connectors on stock but all of them do have 0.8 mm
pitch. The
original Molex 52660-2651 connector has 1.0 mm pitch so that would not
fit...

If you cannot find anything that fits, you can always unsolder the connector
and replace it with something that is still being sold. There should be quite
a few connectors out there, that have a solder pitch of 0.5mm. Though
it would definitely take some time to find a good fit.

Attila Kinali

[Ed Palmer]

Chris,

One source of that connector is an HP C8231A cable for a Deskjet 450.
It's used to connect the printer to a DB-25 parallel port. The connector
fits the X72, but there are only 25 leads in the cable. I haven't tried
to use it so I don't know if the missing lead is important or not. The
cable isn't molded so it might just be possible to add the extra wire. I
opened it up, but I can't tell. It looks like it's an IDC connector.
The connector is stamped with the manufacturer's logo of 'JST' (
www.jst.com ). No part number, though. I looked at the web site, but
didn't see anything close.

Ed

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
Dear all time-nuts list members,
I am looking without any success for some Molex plugs (52660-2651) to
connect to my X72 time standard.
Molex told me that these connectors are obolete since 2010.
I made some recherches at the Molex competitors but all told me that
they do not have 1mm pitch connectors in
their program.
Is there anybody who can help me getting some of these connectors?
That would be very kind and you will set me happy again...
Best Regards
Chris

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[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:05:47 -0600

Post by Ed Palmer
One source of that connector is an HP C8231A cable for a Deskjet 450.
It's used to connect the printer to a DB-25 parallel port. The connector
fits the X72, but there are only 25 leads in the cable. I haven't tried
to use it so I don't know if the missing lead is important or not. The
cable isn't molded so it might just be possible to add the extra wire. I
opened it up, but I can't tell. It looks like it's an IDC connector.
The connector is stamped with the manufacturer's logo of 'JST' (
www.jst.com ). No part number, though. I looked at the web site, but
didn't see anything close.

If you have it open, can you tell which is the pin that's missing?
Maybe that one isn't needed and thus can be ignored.

Attila Kinali

[Mark Sims]

I'm leaning more towards a two board solution now. A small 0.032" board that breaks out the X72 connector to a standard 26 pin ribbon cable header and a larger 0.062" board with the BNC's and RS-232 interface.

This should provide a more robust solution that offers better mounting options. I don't like the idea of a large , thin PCB with heavy components hanging off the X72. The larger board would also have an SA22 pinout connector.

The small, thin board might have a place for LOCK and SRVC LED's and the 390 pF cap and impedance matching resistor. Also a power input.
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[Mark Sims]

Cable has a DB-25 on the other end. X72 uses 26 pins. So logically it would be pin 26 that is missing... 10 MHz sine wave output... nobody needs that one now, do they?

----------------

Post by Attila Kinali
If you have it open, can you tell which is the pin that's missing?

Maybe that one isn't needed and thus can be ignored.
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[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

10 MHz sine output would be pretty high up on my list of “pins to send someplace else …”

Bob

Post by Mark Sims
Cable has a DB-25 on the other end. X72 uses 26 pins. So logically it would be pin 26 that is missing... 10 MHz sine wave output... nobody needs that one now, do they?
----------------

Post by Attila Kinali
If you have it open, can you tell which is the pin that's missing?

Maybe that one isn't needed and thus can be ignored.
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[Ed Palmer]

I did some more work on the HP printer cable that uses this connector.
Here's what I found:

1. Pin 25 on the X72 connector is unconnected.
2. The connector is IDC. It's possible to open it up and add the extra
lead, but like all IDC connectors, it's rather fragile.
3. Of the 25 leads in the cable, 10 aren't connected through. However,
the disconnect is at the DB-25 end. All 25 leads are wired into the X72
end.
4. HP used both JST and Molex connectors. From the pictures I've
found, I can't tell if the Molex connectors can be opened.
5. The connector appears to be model DMX as shown here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050313045224/http://www.jst-mfg.com:80/pdfE/eDMX.pdf
It looks like you have to order all the pieces seperately (?).

JST Connector: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182682094117 . Note the angled
corners near the cable.
Molex Connector: www.ebay.com/itm/182474574277 . Note the corners are
closer to square than on the JST connector.

The ideal result would be to find a source of new,unused connectors, but
these printer cables appear to be an alternative.

Ed

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
Dear all time-nuts list members,
I am looking without any success for some Molex plugs (52660-2651) to
connect to my X72 time standard.
Molex told me that these connectors are obolete since 2010.
I made some recherches at the Molex competitors but all told me that
they do not have 1mm pitch connectors in
their program.
Is there anybody who can help me getting some of these connectors?
That would be very kind and you will set me happy again...
Best Regards
Chris

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and follow the instructions there.

[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hello all,

here is the connection schematics from symmetricoms designer manual for
the X72.
So you see, that there is no need for an25 pin connector on the boards
side :)



If someone wants to download the X72 designer guide here it is:

http://www1.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/productmanual/man-x72.pdf

Regards

Chris

Ed Palmer
Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:11:47 -0700
I did some more work on the HP printer cable that uses this connector.
1. Pin 25 on the X72 connector is unconnected.
2. The connector is IDC. It's possible to open it up and add the extra
lead, but like all IDC connectors, it's rather fragile. 3. Of the 25
leads in the cable, 10 aren't connected through. However, the
disconnect is at the DB-25 end. All 25 leads are wired into the X72
end. 4. HP used both JST and Molex connectors. From the pictures I've
found, I can't tell if the Molex connectors can be opened.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050313045224/http://www.jst-mfg.com:80/pdfE/eDMX.pdf
It looks like you have to order all the pieces seperately (?).
JST Connector: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182682094117 . Note the angled
corners near the cable. Molex Connector: www.ebay.com/itm/182474574277
. Note the corners are closer to square than on the JST connector. The
ideal result would be to find a source of new,unused connectors, but
these printer cables appear to be an alternative.
Ed

[Mark Sims]

Image of the first cut of the X72 interface board attached...

This board can be used stand-alone or connected to another soon-to-be board with RS-232, 4xBNC, and 2.1mm power connectors. Hopefully the second board will also be able to connect to a SA22.c

[Ed Palmer]

Chris,

Are you suggesting reusing the entire cable? I wasn't suggesting that.
The cable is over a meter long! Even if the wiring was correct, which
it isn't, I don't know if you could pull enough power through those 28
guage wires even though they have multiple leads in parallel. Either
remove the cable from the IDC connector and replace with something more
appropriate or cut the cable and leave maybe 10 cm. of cable attached to
the connector. Terminate as appropriate.

Datum understood that different situations require different solutions.
They provided both Molex and 'circuit board' connectors for maximum
flexibility. Personally, I think the connector looks a little silly.
It's so big compared to the X72. But for some users, it might be perfect.

I'm looking forward to Mark's circuit boards. I have one of the
official boards that I've barnacled a few extra leads onto to bring out
the signals that Datum didn't, but it's ugly. A better solution would
be welcome.

You asked for the connector, I provided a source. As is typical with
Time-Nuts equipment, some assembly is required.

Ed

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
Hello all,
here is the connection schematics from symmetricoms designer manual for
the X72.
So you see, that there is no need for an25 pin connector on the boards
side:)
http://www1.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/productmanual/man-x72.pdf
Regards
Chris

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[Mark Sims]

The Mark II (groan)... changed power connector to a 2.1mm barrel jack, added a 15uF or so filter cap, added a PPS LED, added a separate ground test point, added series damping resistors for the ACMOS and FXO outputs (can be omitted to isolate these signals from the cable), etc.

[Mark Sims]

Here's a look at the first cut of the signal interface board for the X72. The board does not bring out the LEDs. You can pick those off the connector board.

It can also be used with the SA22.c once a board that breaks out the SA22 connector pinouts to a 34 pin cable (8 pins are for the SA22.c +5V power/gnd) is built. Note the TO-220 LM7805 voltage regulator... Symmeticom does not deign to tell use mere peons how much current that needs. That regulator may need to be a switcher or need a heat sink.

The BNC on the end of the board is configured to output the programmable ACMOS output, but with a cut and jumper can output the FXO output (the 60 MHz X72 oscillator output)

[Attila Kinali]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 16:22:18 +0000

Post by Mark Sims
It can also be used with the SA22.c once a board that breaks out the SA22
connector pinouts to a 34 pin cable (8 pins are for the SA22.c +5V power/
gnd) is built. Note the TO-220 LM7805 voltage regulator... Symmeticom does
not deign to tell use mere peons how much current that needs. That
regulator may need to be a switcher or need a heat sink.

Isn't this the "max warm up power" in the "X71 Design Absolute Maximum Rating"
table in the designer's refernence manual? Or am I missing something?
It states that the X72 uses 17W max 10W for 25°C ambient. Which sounds
about as much as I expect for an vapor cell standard. Though 3A on 5V
(or 2A @25°C) is a bit tough.

Attila Kinali

[Mark Sims]

Yes, you're missing something... the SA22.c runs on +15V and +5V. The X72 manual says they have 5V versions and versions that can run on 10V .. 30V (but the HEALTH message reports some values that appear to indicate it alarms or shuts down at <11.47V or >23.9969).

But who knows? The X72 / SA22 documentation is, without a doubt, some of the worst I've ever seen... and I've seen a lot. The magnitude of its crapitude is unfathomable.

--------------

Post by Attila Kinali
Isn't this the "max warm up power" in the "X71 Design Absolute Maximum Rating"

table in the designer's refernence manual? Or am I missing something?
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[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hello Ed,

No I do not want to use a printer cable to connect to the X72
oscillator. This is not recommendable as you wrote for several reasons.
I would prefer a solution which uses an actual connector which could
replace the obsolete Molex 52660-2651 plug.
This is very difficult because every manufacturer which had connectors
with 1.0 mm pitch in its program has stopped production of those connectors.
I wrote a lot of emails the last days to a lot of sellers and to
manufacturers which had 1.0 mm pitch conns in their program but all
cannot sell ones right now.
Another solution would be to to replace the original Molex board
connector with a newer 1.27 mm pitch one. There a some sources but it is
hard to find one which fits the onboard pcb layout. So I do not want to
rebuild the X72. I prefer a solution which do not modify the rubidium
source.

Mark Sims solution to build a new connector board with the needed
connections and may be a little bit more features will be the best
solution right now. So if he had finished his board I would be happy to
get the sources to get some ordered at my local PCB manufacturer.
I think that brings the best options for future use of the X72
oscillator which seems to be a very good small rubidium oscillator
nowerdays. SA22.c oscillators are not so spread over the known used-item
reseller sources and if yes they are quite expensive to buy.

If some of you wants to buy one ore more X72 I had a link to a seller
which has a few on stock:
Here is the link:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Symmetricom-X72-Rubidium-Oscillator-10-32V-DC-10MHz/152549446499?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Have a nice day and

*with best Regards*
*
*
*Chris

*

Post by Ed Palmer
Chris,
Are you suggesting reusing the entire cable? I wasn't suggesting that.
The cable is over a meter long! Even if the wiring was correct, which
it isn't, I don't know if you could pull enough power through those 28
guage wires even though they have multiple leads in parallel. Either
remove the cable from the IDC connector and replace with something more
appropriate or cut the cable and leave maybe 10 cm. of cable attached to
the connector. Terminate as appropriate.
Datum understood that different situations require different solutions.
They provided both Molex and 'circuit board' connectors for maximum
flexibility. Personally, I think the connector looks a little silly.
It's so big compared to the X72. But for some users, it might be perfect.
I'm looking forward to Mark's circuit boards. I have one of the
official boards that I've barnacled a few extra leads onto to bring out
the signals that Datum didn't, but it's ugly. A better solution would
be welcome.
You asked for the connector, I provided a source. As is typical with
Time-Nuts equipment, some assembly is required.
Ed

/Hello all, />//>/here is the connection schematics from symmetricoms designer manual for />/the X72. />/So you see, that there is no need for an25 pin connector on the boards />/side:) />//>//>//>/If someone wants to download the X72 designer guide here it is: />//>/http://www1.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/productmanual/man-x72.pdf

/>//>/Regards />//>/Chris /

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[Mark Sims]

I'm going to buy enough boards to get them for a decent price... way lower than you can have them built for. Will also probably do them with a kit of parts.

RDR Electronics has SA22's for not much more than the X72. The problem with SA22's is the connector. It is a dual row 18 pin connector with 2mm pitch. It is on the bottom of the box where you want to mount the heatsink. Not sure how one would mount it so that the full surface is on the heatsink. It looks like they use a mating SMD PCB mounted connector.

---------------------

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
So if he had finished his board I would be happy to

get the sources to get some ordered at my local PCB manufacturer.
I think that brings the best options for future use of the X72
oscillator which seems to be a very good small rubidium oscillator
nowerdays. SA22.c oscillators are not so spread over the known used-item
reseller sources and if yes they are quite expensive to buy.
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[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A lot of the OEM’s seem to be going with a large multi layer PCB as the “heatsink” for
the lightweight Rb’s. Apparently they have enough airflow through their racks that this
works ok for them. In that case, I think I’d prefer some sort of “cheap” SMD PC mount
connector. Faster to assemble that way …..those nickels add up quick :)

Bob

Post by Mark Sims
I'm going to buy enough boards to get them for a decent price... way lower than you can have them built for. Will also probably do them with a kit of parts.
RDR Electronics has SA22's for not much more than the X72. The problem with SA22's is the connector. It is a dual row 18 pin connector with 2mm pitch. It is on the bottom of the box where you want to mount the heatsink. Not sure how one would mount it so that the full surface is on the heatsink. It looks like they use a mating SMD PCB mounted connector.
---------------------

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
So if he had finished his board I would be happy to

get the sources to get some ordered at my local PCB manufacturer.
I think that brings the best options for future use of the X72
oscillator which seems to be a very good small rubidium oscillator
nowerdays. SA22.c oscillators are not so spread over the known used-item
reseller sources and if yes they are quite expensive to buy.
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[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:56:20 +0000

Post by Mark Sims
RDR Electronics has SA22's for not much more than the X72.
The problem with SA22's is the connector. It is a dual row 18 pin
connector with 2mm pitch.

At least you can get 2mm header pins quite easily. But yes, I have the
same problem. I have an SA22 sitting on my desk that waits for
an adapter board.

Post by Mark Sims
It is on the bottom of the box where you want
to mount the heatsink. Not sure how one would mount it so that the full
surface is on the heatsink. It looks like they use a mating SMD PCB
mounted connector.

In one of the documentation, they specified a few ways how to
mount it on a heatsink. They all boil down to having the heatsink
only in the back part and the adapter PCB in the front part.

Attila Kinali

[Ed Palmer]

FYI, a small number of interface boards for the SA22 are available
here: www.ebay.com/itm/142461937901 . If you look in the Designer's
Reference & User's Guide, it shows the adapter board with and without
the heat sink. It has the same connector as the X72, but you don't have
to use it!

Ed

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:56:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Special connector for Symmetricom X72 rubidium
standard
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm going to buy enough boards to get them for a decent price... way lower than you can have them built for. Will also probably do them with a kit of parts.
RDR Electronics has SA22's for not much more than the X72. The problem with SA22's is the connector. It is a dual row 18 pin connector with 2mm pitch. It is on the bottom of the box where you want to mount the heatsink. Not sure how one would mount it so that the full surface is on the heatsink. It looks like they use a mating SMD PCB mounted connector.
---------------------

Post by Christoph Kopetzky
So if he had finished his board I would be happy to

get the sources to get some ordered at my local PCB manufacturer.
I think that brings the best options for future use of the X72
oscillator which seems to be a very good small rubidium oscillator
nowerdays. SA22.c oscillators are not so spread over the known used-item
reseller sources and if yes they are quite expensive to buy.

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