Discussion:
[time-nuts] PM6680 or 53131A for TimePod
Scott McGrath
2015-11-16 06:42:12 UTC
Permalink
More of a slip as I've noted I have a time pod for work but I'd like to add a small counter for time nuttery as power is not cheap in NE so running the 5371A for long runs can get expensive

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you
need a counter for?
Or was the original question a slip, and was supposed to be which counter
is good for use with TimeLab software?
--
Chris Caudle
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Scott McGrath
2015-11-15 23:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Bob

I'm using the actual time pod for paying activities. This would be a counter for time nuttery using the time pod software. In those cases Where I don't want to fire up the 5071.

I'm familiar with the Keysight counters and I have a lot of them into the high Ghz ranges

The 53131 is spec'd to 500ps and the 6680 is spec'd at 250ps

I've also been leaning in the 53131 direction but I'd like to have the best tool for the job at hand

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
Hi
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you need a counter for?
Based on a guess that you need extended frequency range, either would do pretty well. My vote
1) It’s more broadly supported in terms of driver software (which may or may not matter to you).
2) It’s a more common item on the auction sites, so parts are easier to find.
3) It shares some parts (like the power supply) with the (cheaper) 53181
No those are not great big reasons to go for one over the other. They are very similar devices. One
has an LCD that has a finite life. The other has a VFD that also has a finite life. Both are custom, that’s
a tie. Some like the command (button) arrangement on one over the other. I think it’s more a “what
are you used to” thing than anything else. On the 53131 you need to hit the Run button in some cases.
I have not watched the prices on the Fluke. I have kept track of the 53131’s. A “good price” on one
these days is below $600 ( = you may need to shop a bit, but they do show up).
Bob
Hi
Which counter would be best for use with time pod I have a chance to buy each at a reasonable prices i.e. < 1000 US
Thanks in advance Scott
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
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Angus
2015-11-16 21:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

PM6681's turn up at quite a good price too, and you get a lot of
extras over the 6680 - does anyone know if Timelab will work with a
6681?

Angus.
Post by Scott McGrath
Thanks Bob
I'm using the actual time pod for paying activities. This would be a counter for time nuttery using the time pod software. In those cases Where I don't want to fire up the 5071.
I'm familiar with the Keysight counters and I have a lot of them into the high Ghz ranges
The 53131 is spec'd to 500ps and the 6680 is spec'd at 250ps
I've also been leaning in the 53131 direction but I'd like to have the best tool for the job at hand
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
Hi
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you need a counter for?
Based on a guess that you need extended frequency range, either would do pretty well. My vote
1) It’s more broadly supported in terms of driver software (which may or may not matter to you).
2) It’s a more common item on the auction sites, so parts are easier to find.
3) It shares some parts (like the power supply) with the (cheaper) 53181
No those are not great big reasons to go for one over the other. They are very similar devices. One
has an LCD that has a finite life. The other has a VFD that also has a finite life. Both are custom, that’s
a tie. Some like the command (button) arrangement on one over the other. I think it’s more a “what
are you used to” thing than anything else. On the 53131 you need to hit the Run button in some cases.
I have not watched the prices on the Fluke. I have kept track of the 53131’s. A “good price” on one
these days is below $600 ( = you may need to shop a bit, but they do show up).
Bob
Hi
Which counter would be best for use with time pod I have a chance to buy each at a reasonable prices i.e. < 1000 US
Thanks in advance Scott
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
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davidh
2015-11-17 11:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Angus,

I have three 6681s operating concurrently under a single instance of
timelab beta. It operates perfectly, even live n-cornered measurements.
Kudos to John!

The only downside (and I understand why it's this way) is that each
counter needs a unique GPIB interface, but this is a timelab requirement
and nothing to do with the counters.

My only fear regarding the counters is that I'll lose the cal one day,
so I'm keen to discover how we can calibrate them ourselves.

Cheers,

david
Post by Angus
Hi,
PM6681's turn up at quite a good price too, and you get a lot of
extras over the 6680 - does anyone know if Timelab will work with a
6681?
Angus.
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Azelio Boriani
2015-11-17 19:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Not necessarily, if you follow the service manual's procedure, you can
replace the backup 3V cell safely, keeping the calibration data: the
problem is checking periodically the backup cell or replacing it
regularly (say, every 5 years).
Post by davidh
Hi Angus,
I have three 6681s operating concurrently under a single instance of timelab
beta. It operates perfectly, even live n-cornered measurements. Kudos to
John!
The only downside (and I understand why it's this way) is that each counter
needs a unique GPIB interface, but this is a timelab requirement and nothing
to do with the counters.
My only fear regarding the counters is that I'll lose the cal one day, so
I'm keen to discover how we can calibrate them ourselves.
Cheers,
david
Post by Angus
Hi,
PM6681's turn up at quite a good price too, and you get a lot of
extras over the 6680 - does anyone know if Timelab will work with a
6681?
Angus.
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Bob Camp
2015-11-18 12:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi

The coin cell / backup battery swap out is something we probably will become more familiar
with on a *lot* of gear. The battery backed up RAM idea is now old enough that there is a large
population of test gear / radios / telecom gear out there with this “feature”. In some cases the
loss of the battery is a temporary issue. In a lot of others it’s a significant problem.

If you are buying a piece of gear that has important stuff in RAM, the big question is — has the
data been lost already? I have bought gear that had a good battery in it, but bad data. If the gear
comes up with “data lost” on the screen, that’s easy to spot. In most cases …not so easy at all.

Some gear might be configurable by normal means. Almost everything I’ve seen needs a “factory
only” shoot from a test set that probably no longer exists. Yes, there’s nothing magic in that test
set. The RAM just has bits in it. Figuring out what all the bits need to be without any documentation
is not easy.

One might hope that as the gear becomes obsolete, the information about what’s what would be
released to the public. Based on … errr …. on the job experience - not so likely. The data rarely
is documented in a “public compatible” fashion. One guy’s notes tell you what the test setup looks like.
Another set of notes go into the code. Both are buried in log books from who knows when. Beyond
this, someone actively has to agree to release “corporate IP”. The complex part of that is the fact
that the calibration techniques probably live on in a modern piece of gear. Not at all easy ….

Bob


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Magnus Danielson
2015-11-18 22:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

To illustrate your point.

The original PM6681 calibration setup includes a PC, an ancient Philips
ISA-bus GPIB interface and an ancient Philips driver and a DOS program.
Collecting these and put them together to work will be an interesting
challenge.

A more modern variant of the calibration routines run can run on more
modern HW and LabView software. Philips PM5781 and Agilent 81112A pulse
generators is supported by those routines.

By now the production of the counter has stopped, as the counter core
ASIC ran out of stock.

The folks who designed and maintained them does not work there anymore.

Turns out the core setup requires a generator that creates a skewed
frequency such that you sweep over the interpolation phases. You tweak
the calibration value (3.86-4.50 ns in 0.02 ns steps) that you set over
GPIB using the *PUD command. You can check it yourself using *PUD?.
It sweeps over this range and checks for the value giving lowest RMS
value (SDEV result) and then sets this as the final value.

You can set the value using the command :SYST:UNPR;*PUD %s where %s is
the string, looking somewhat like this:

FACTORY CALIBRATED: %s%s, CALPLS 3.98 ns

The two %s in there is for some string and date, I just don't bother to
dig up a correct example.

Anyway, you can actually read-out the data and write it back without the
software. It should be possible to do something with the existing pieces
and it might be possible to actually get the calibration software
operational again.

I just don't have a CNT81 anymore to try this out on.

Cheers,
Magnus
Post by Bob Camp
Hi
The coin cell / backup battery swap out is something we probably will become more familiar
with on a *lot* of gear. The battery backed up RAM idea is now old enough that there is a large
population of test gear / radios / telecom gear out there with this “feature”. In some cases the
loss of the battery is a temporary issue. In a lot of others it’s a significant problem.
If you are buying a piece of gear that has important stuff in RAM, the big question is — has the
data been lost already? I have bought gear that had a good battery in it, but bad data. If the gear
comes up with “data lost” on the screen, that’s easy to spot. In most cases …not so easy at all.
Some gear might be configurable by normal means. Almost everything I’ve seen needs a “factory
only” shoot from a test set that probably no longer exists. Yes, there’s nothing magic in that test
set. The RAM just has bits in it. Figuring out what all the bits need to be without any documentation
is not easy.
One might hope that as the gear becomes obsolete, the information about what’s what would be
released to the public. Based on … errr …. on the job experience - not so likely. The data rarely
is documented in a “public compatible” fashion. One guy’s notes tell you what the test setup looks like.
Another set of notes go into the code. Both are buried in log books from who knows when. Beyond
this, someone actively has to agree to release “corporate IP”. The complex part of that is the fact
that the calibration techniques probably live on in a modern piece of gear. Not at all easy ….
Bob
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Azelio Boriani
2015-11-17 20:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Not necessarily, if you follow the service manual's procedure, you can
replace the backup 3V cell safely, keeping the calibration data: the
problem is checking periodically the backup cell or replacing it
regularly (say, every 5 years).
Post by davidh
Hi Angus,
I have three 6681s operating concurrently under a single instance of timelab
beta. It operates perfectly, even live n-cornered measurements. Kudos to
John!
The only downside (and I understand why it's this way) is that each counter
needs a unique GPIB interface, but this is a timelab requirement and nothing
to do with the counters.
My only fear regarding the counters is that I'll lose the cal one day, so
I'm keen to discover how we can calibrate them ourselves.
Cheers,
david
Post by Angus
Hi,
PM6681's turn up at quite a good price too, and you get a lot of
extras over the 6680 - does anyone know if Timelab will work with a
6681?
Angus.
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Bob Camp
2015-11-17 01:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi

At leas on the spec sheet I found, both counters have a single shot of 500 ps. The
6680 “improves” as the averaging goes up.

http://isurplus.com.au/specifications/Philips%20PM6680%20Specifications.pdf

Section 13-8 has a lot of “500 ps / sqrt(N)" in it. If N=1 (single shot) you get 500 ps. HP stops the
process when resolution and random bounce are roughly equal. Fluke gives you another bit of
noise to possibly average out under some conditions.

At least the way I read the data sheets, the two counters are very similar.

Bob
Post by Scott McGrath
Thanks Bob
I'm using the actual time pod for paying activities. This would be a counter for time nuttery using the time pod software. In those cases Where I don't want to fire up the 5071.
I'm familiar with the Keysight counters and I have a lot of them into the high Ghz ranges
The 53131 is spec'd to 500ps and the 6680 is spec'd at 250ps
I've also been leaning in the 53131 direction but I'd like to have the best tool for the job at hand
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
Hi
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you need a counter for?
Based on a guess that you need extended frequency range, either would do pretty well. My vote
1) It’s more broadly supported in terms of driver software (which may or may not matter to you).
2) It’s a more common item on the auction sites, so parts are easier to find.
3) It shares some parts (like the power supply) with the (cheaper) 53181
No those are not great big reasons to go for one over the other. They are very similar devices. One
has an LCD that has a finite life. The other has a VFD that also has a finite life. Both are custom, that’s
a tie. Some like the command (button) arrangement on one over the other. I think it’s more a “what
are you used to” thing than anything else. On the 53131 you need to hit the Run button in some cases.
I have not watched the prices on the Fluke. I have kept track of the 53131’s. A “good price” on one
these days is below $600 ( = you may need to shop a bit, but they do show up).
Bob
Hi
Which counter would be best for use with time pod I have a chance to buy each at a reasonable prices i.e. < 1000 US
Thanks in advance Scott
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
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Magnus Danielson
2015-11-17 06:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

The single-shot does not improve, it's 500 ps, but the averaging of N
samples give you that result. The 53131 does similar tricks.

Cheers,
Magnus
Post by Bob Camp
Hi
At leas on the spec sheet I found, both counters have a single shot of 500 ps. The
6680 “improves” as the averaging goes up.
http://isurplus.com.au/specifications/Philips%20PM6680%20Specifications.pdf
Section 13-8 has a lot of “500 ps / sqrt(N)" in it. If N=1 (single shot) you get 500 ps. HP stops the
process when resolution and random bounce are roughly equal. Fluke gives you another bit of
noise to possibly average out under some conditions.
At least the way I read the data sheets, the two counters are very similar.
Bob
Post by Scott McGrath
Thanks Bob
I'm using the actual time pod for paying activities. This would be a counter for time nuttery using the time pod software. In those cases Where I don't want to fire up the 5071.
I'm familiar with the Keysight counters and I have a lot of them into the high Ghz ranges
The 53131 is spec'd to 500ps and the 6680 is spec'd at 250ps
I've also been leaning in the 53131 direction but I'd like to have the best tool for the job at hand
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
Hi
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you need a counter for?
Based on a guess that you need extended frequency range, either would do pretty well. My vote
1) It’s more broadly supported in terms of driver software (which may or may not matter to you).
2) It’s a more common item on the auction sites, so parts are easier to find.
3) It shares some parts (like the power supply) with the (cheaper) 53181
No those are not great big reasons to go for one over the other. They are very similar devices. One
has an LCD that has a finite life. The other has a VFD that also has a finite life. Both are custom, that’s
a tie. Some like the command (button) arrangement on one over the other. I think it’s more a “what
are you used to” thing than anything else. On the 53131 you need to hit the Run button in some cases.
I have not watched the prices on the Fluke. I have kept track of the 53131’s. A “good price” on one
these days is below $600 ( = you may need to shop a bit, but they do show up).
Bob
Hi
Which counter would be best for use with time pod I have a chance to buy each at a reasonable prices i.e. < 1000 US
Thanks in advance Scott
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
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Larry McDavid
2015-11-16 07:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Why would you want to use a 150 ps 53131 instead of a counter/timer like
the Agilent/Keysight 53230A that provides 20 ps resolution? The TimePod
my have better noise specs but it is a really dedicated, specific-use
device.

Larry
Post by Scott McGrath
More of a slip as I've noted I have a time pod for work but I'd like to add a small counter for time nuttery as power is not cheap in NE so running the 5371A for long runs can get expensive
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
I guess the first question would be - If you have a Time Pod, what do you
need a counter for?
Or was the original question a slip, and was supposed to be which counter
is good for use with TimeLab software?
--
Chris Caudle
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Chris Caudle
2015-11-16 14:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott McGrath
More of a slip as I've noted I have a time pod for work but I'd like to
add a small counter for time nuttery as power is not cheap in NE so
running the 5371A for long runs can get expensive
I don't follow. Why would you not use the TimePod with a lower power
reference? It isn't like a TimePod only works with a cesium clock as the
reference source.
--
Chris Caudle


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Scott McGrath
2015-11-17 01:45:52 UTC
Permalink
5371a is a TI analyzer The time pod itself is used for paying work so it's not available for time nuttery.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
Post by Chris Caudle
Post by Scott McGrath
More of a slip as I've noted I have a time pod for work but I'd like to
add a small counter for time nuttery as power is not cheap in NE so
running the 5371A for long runs can get expensive
I don't follow. Why would you not use the TimePod with a lower power
reference? It isn't like a TimePod only works with a cesium clock as the
reference source.
--
Chris Caudle
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Mark Sims
2015-11-18 16:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Not only battery backed up SRAM but EEPROM config data has problems. I'm a bit of a mass nut and have seen lots of old precision balances (i.e. Sartorious and Mettler) that used first gen serial EEPROMs to save their cal/config data. Lots of these are going senile. I had to build programmers for the SDA2006 and MCM2801 (?) chips since no commercial programmers support them. They require 3 or 4 different voltages to program.
Whenever I get in a scale I dump the old eeprom and rewrite it. If the old eeprom already croaked, I use a backup dump from a different scale. Sometimes that causes issues if the scale has an internal cal weight that was calibrated at the factory... then one gets to try and adjust the internal cal weight to match the weight specified in backup device data.
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Mark Sims
2015-11-19 00:41:59 UTC
Permalink
I once got in around 20 Tek DM5?? GPIB DVM modules for the TM5000 series mainframes. They have a rechargeable nicad pack soldered to the circuit board. All the meters still had good cal data but the cells were on their way out. The meters are a pain to re-calibrate...

I used a DIP clip to provide voltage to the SRAM chip while changing the battery. Only lost cal dataon one meter. I replaced the nicads with a CR123 lithium cell with a series diode to block the charging current. On each meter I checked the standby current to the SRAM first. A couple had rather high values that would drain the CR123 after a year or so, so I kept nicads in those. After 5+ years the meters are still working on the CR123 cells.
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