Discussion:
TimeSource 2500
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Dmitry Khorkin
2018-11-21 23:05:19 UTC
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Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to no
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.

The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.

Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Dmitry
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David Slipper
2018-11-22 00:02:12 UTC
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Have you tried checking/setting the modem control lines (RTS CTS DCD
etc) it may need one or more to transmit.

Dave
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to no
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.
The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.
Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Dmitry
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.
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Bob kb8tq
2018-11-22 01:18:28 UTC
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Hi

Do you have good reason to believe that it’s not DOA?

It’s been a *long* time since these were common on the surplus market. I would not
be real surprised to find that what’s floating around has been through several owners
at this point.

Bob
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to no
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.
The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.
Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Dmitry
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
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Dmitry Khorkin
2018-11-22 03:22:23 UTC
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Hi,

Well, unit gives stable 10 MHz, so Rb oscillator seems to be alive.
Upon power up, sequence of TL1 messages(from Craft port) is "sensible" and
corresponds to what is to be expected, based on the manual. So controller
seems to be working.
Antenna sense circuit is also correctly determines presence/absence of the
load.
Overall, unit seems to be functional.

Regarding serial settings, i can read TL1 messages from Craft port, but
can't elicit any response when sending TL1 (or anything else) to it.
Bit rate is standard 9600, otherwise i receive gibberish from the Craft,
so, this seem to be correct.
Pinout for Craft port of TS2500 is (Tx, Rx, DSR, GND, DTR), i tried both
DRT/DSR hardware handshake and no handshake. For RS232 port tried null
cable, straight, RS232<->USB with RTS/CTS, DTR/DSR, no handshake.
Most work is done under Linux, so i attempted connection by 'cu' and
'screen' varying settings that make sense, also plain 'echo' while reading
using 'cat' in a separate terminal.
Results are the same whether i try to connect directly from PC or using
Moxa N5610 server in between.

TS3x00 series also uses BTmon for connection and judging from the manual
communicates using TL1 messages.
My guess, there is a wrapper around TL1 message, but i can't find any
hints. Or, there is some sort of software handshake upon connection.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Best regards,
Dmitry
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Do you have good reason to believe that it’s not DOA?
It’s been a *long* time since these were common on the surplus market. I would not
be real surprised to find that what’s floating around has been through several owners
at this point.
Bob
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to no
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.
The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.
Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry Khorkin
and follow the instructions there.
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Daniel H. Pressler
2018-11-22 23:17:47 UTC
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Not sure it will help but my experience with TL1 is that the ; is the end of line character that will get you a response. Worth a try if you haven't done it already.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-***@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Dmitry Khorkin
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:22 PM
To: time-***@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TimeSource 2500

Hi,

Well, unit gives stable 10 MHz, so Rb oscillator seems to be alive.
Upon power up, sequence of TL1 messages(from Craft port) is "sensible" and
corresponds to what is to be expected, based on the manual. So controller
seems to be working.
Antenna sense circuit is also correctly determines presence/absence of the
load.
Overall, unit seems to be functional.

Regarding serial settings, i can read TL1 messages from Craft port, but
can't elicit any response when sending TL1 (or anything else) to it.
Bit rate is standard 9600, otherwise i receive gibberish from the Craft,
so, this seem to be correct.
Pinout for Craft port of TS2500 is (Tx, Rx, DSR, GND, DTR), i tried both
DRT/DSR hardware handshake and no handshake. For RS232 port tried null
cable, straight, RS232<->USB with RTS/CTS, DTR/DSR, no handshake.
Most work is done under Linux, so i attempted connection by 'cu' and
'screen' varying settings that make sense, also plain 'echo' while reading
using 'cat' in a separate terminal.
Results are the same whether i try to connect directly from PC or using
Moxa N5610 server in between.

TS3x00 series also uses BTmon for connection and judging from the manual
communicates using TL1 messages.
My guess, there is a wrapper around TL1 message, but i can't find any
hints. Or, there is some sort of software handshake upon connection.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Best regards,
Dmitry
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Do you have good reason to believe that it’s not DOA?
It’s been a *long* time since these were common on the surplus market. I would not
be real surprised to find that what’s floating around has been through several owners
at this point.
Bob
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to no
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.
The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.
Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Dmitry
_______________________________________________
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Post by Dmitry Khorkin
and follow the instructions there.
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Dmitry Khorkin
2018-11-23 10:54:16 UTC
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Thank you everyone for replies!

Setup i am using right now, it is PC -> Moxa Nport 5610 -> TS2500. Though i
also tried direct connection with USB->RS232 cable.
NPort is true RS232, and works as expected, because i freely communicate
with my other equipment.
I tried all possible settings on the serial port and tried with most
operating modes (reverse telnet, PPP, TCT Server).
Currently operating mode on NPort makes itself transparent and i can
connect through "tty" as though NPort wasn't there. (This mode works fine
with other equipment).

Further investigation revealed some abnormalities with the data ports
namely voltages on the pins there they shouldn't be present on TS2500.
All data connections were cut, i measured directly on TimeSource with DMM
and scope.
1) Craft port (TS2500)
Pin Signal Voltage
2 Tx 0V
3 Rx 9.3V <=== DC, nothing on the scope
4 DSR 0V
5 GND 0V
6 DRT 0V
7 frame -9.7V <=== DC nothing on the scope
8 frame 0V

2) RS232 (TS2500)
Pin Signal Voltage
1 DCD 0V
2 Rx 9.4V <=== DC nothing on the scope
3 Tx -9.4 +9.6V <=== every 6 seconds sends data as
described below
4 DTR 0V
5 GND 0V
6 DSR 0V
7 RTS 0V
8 CTS 9.3V <=== doesn't go down

For RS232 (Tx pin) character duration is about 104 usec, which corresponds
to 9600 bps.
Information it sends is: "ATE0&R1&C1S0=1", every 6 seconds. Though if i
echo something, it stops for 62 seconds and then repeats spamming with 6
sec period.
E0 = turn off echo
&R1 = &R - RTS/CTS option; &R1 - Ignore CTS from DTE (always send)
&C1 = &C - Data Carrier detect option; &C1 - DCD follows carrier state
S0=1 - 1 ring before auto answer

I was unable to act upon this modem initialization string. Minicom sees
input, but i still don't get reply when sending anything.

So TX on both ports are definitely working, but Rx on those ports are
constantly in +9,4V state.
Also CTS pin on RS232 is constantly high and what is more bewildering, pin
7 on Craft port, which marked as "frame" has -9,7VDC potential. At the same
time pin 8, which is also "frame" has GND potential.

Any thoughts?
I also tried to find a way to factory reset device, but there is no such
button outside and inside there is only one jumper "JP1". Removing it
didn't seem to do anything.

BRGRDS,
Dmitry
Post by Daniel H. Pressler
Not sure it will help but my experience with TL1 is that the ; is the end
of line character that will get you a response. Worth a try if you haven't
done it already.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TimeSource 2500
Hi,
Well, unit gives stable 10 MHz, so Rb oscillator seems to be alive.
Upon power up, sequence of TL1 messages(from Craft port) is "sensible" and
corresponds to what is to be expected, based on the manual. So controller
seems to be working.
Antenna sense circuit is also correctly determines presence/absence of the
load.
Overall, unit seems to be functional.
Regarding serial settings, i can read TL1 messages from Craft port, but
can't elicit any response when sending TL1 (or anything else) to it.
Bit rate is standard 9600, otherwise i receive gibberish from the Craft,
so, this seem to be correct.
Pinout for Craft port of TS2500 is (Tx, Rx, DSR, GND, DTR), i tried both
DRT/DSR hardware handshake and no handshake. For RS232 port tried null
cable, straight, RS232<->USB with RTS/CTS, DTR/DSR, no handshake.
Most work is done under Linux, so i attempted connection by 'cu' and
'screen' varying settings that make sense, also plain 'echo' while reading
using 'cat' in a separate terminal.
Results are the same whether i try to connect directly from PC or using
Moxa N5610 server in between.
TS3x00 series also uses BTmon for connection and judging from the manual
communicates using TL1 messages.
My guess, there is a wrapper around TL1 message, but i can't find any
hints. Or, there is some sort of software handshake upon connection.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Best regards,
Dmitry
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Do you have good reason to believe that it’s not DOA?
It’s been a *long* time since these were common on the surplus market. I would not
be real surprised to find that what’s floating around has been through several owners
at this point.
Bob
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't
find a
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
way to communicate with it.
Tried both straight and null-cables, RS232 and Craft interfaces but to
no
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
vail. There is no reply no matter what i send.
The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming
from
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
the Craft port.
Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else
one
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Dmitry
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by Dmitry Khorkin
and follow the instructions there.
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Dennis Ferguson
2018-11-24 02:08:34 UTC
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Post by Dmitry Khorkin
For RS232 (Tx pin) character duration is about 104 usec, which corresponds
to 9600 bps.
Information it sends is: "ATE0&R1&C1S0=1", every 6 seconds. Though if i
echo something, it stops for 62 seconds and then repeats spamming with 6
sec period.
E0 = turn off echo
&R1 = &R - RTS/CTS option; &R1 - Ignore CTS from DTE (always send)
&C1 = &C - Data Carrier detect option; &C1 - DCD follows carrier state
S0=1 - 1 ring before auto answer
Ah, the port is configured to talk to a modem and, given the S0=1 part,
there is a good chance it expects the modem to be a dial-in that answers
calls.

It has been a long time since I had to deal with one of those but the
response it is expecting to the command it sent is very likely

\r\nOK\r\n

where \r is carriage return (== control-M) and \n is linefeed/newline
(== control-J). Replying with that should get you past the command it
is now sending to see what it does next.

If it really expects a dial-in modem you may need to manipulate
control signals enough to convince the TS2500 that the “modem” has
connected a call before you’ll ever see a command interpreter or
anything. The minimal protocol will have the TS2500 assert DTR when
it is ready for the modem to answer a call and deassert DTR when it
wants the modem to hang up the phone. The modem, having seen DTR
asserted, will assert DCD when a call has been connected and
deassert DCD when the call hangs up. DCD should probably start
off deasserted and remain so until after you’ve acknowledged the
modem configuration string.

If you ever do get to a command interpreter a priority should be
to find the configuration that makes it think there’s a modem
attached and reset that to a hardwired line.

Dennis Ferguson
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Bruce Hunter via time-nuts
2018-11-22 17:35:10 UTC
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One disappointment of the Time Source 2500 (also the 2700) is that the premium PRS-10 rubidium oscillator is not active in the timing process unless GPS reception is lost.  The TS2500 monitors the PRS-10 output (along with any other connected frequency references) and tracks the offset from GPS.  If GPS reception is lost, it generates a signal based upon the current PRS-10 output frequency after correcting it for the expected offset.
If other frequency reference signals are submitted to the PRS-10, it will also consider them and their stability history, with respect to GPS, in computing the weighting factors to be summed in deciding upon the offset to be applied to the PRS-10 output.  This is an interesting approach to providing a reliable time-base for communications systems, but perhaps not as well directed to the desires of time nuts.

Bruce, KG6OJI
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Gregory Beat via time-nuts
2018-11-22 18:26:08 UTC
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Symmetricom Timesource 2500 PRS
MANUAL
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1334220/Symmetricom-Timesource-2500.html

Page 81 : Local Communications Port (Craft port), 5-wire RS-232 implementation
Note: TL1 messages are available only via the Craft port.

Page 83 : Remote Communications Port, Full 9-pin (DE-9) wiring.
==
Use a personal computer with a TRUE RS-232C serial port.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232#Cables

LAVA (Canada) is best add-on serial card for computers with PCIe or PCI expansion slots (support for >115k).
I have seen too many issues with cheap Chinese (Prolific) USB-RS-232 Bridges.

It is not uncommon on older used electronics hardware to find BAD
TTL(UART) to RS-232C level converters (Maxim 232 family, TI 1488/1489, etc.).
ESD events, especially changing cables when u it is powered will damage Early generation components.
Newer components (and designs) use ESD-resistant components (up to 15kV) ... as a defense to real-world events.
A “blown receiver” with those components ... causes “deafness” — can’t hear the transmissions via RS-232 port.

greg, w9gb
===
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:05:19 +0300
From: Dmitry Khorkin
To: time-***@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] TimeSource 2500

Recently i purchased Symmetricom's Timesource 2500 PRS, but can't find a
way to communicate with it. Tried both straight and null-cables, RS-232 and Craft interfaces but to no avail. There is no reply no matter what i send.

The only thing I was able to achieve is reading TL1 messages comming from
the Craft port.

Can someone please share a copy of BTMon software or advise how else one
can communicate with the device. Maybe description of the protocol, or
structure of the message it expects.

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Dmitry

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