Discussion:
Setting Time on WSPR Radio Transmitter
(too old to reply)
Brooke Clarke
2018-06-22 16:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi:

I'm experimenting with a WSPR beacon transmitter and part of how it works depends on pushing the start button at exactly
2 seconds past the minute.
http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR
The problem is the transmitter (and the start button) are out in the forest where the antenna is located.
Loading Image...

SotaBeams, who make the WSPRlite transmitter recommends using http://time.is/ which seems to be accurate on my cell
phone but not on my desktop running the stock NTP.
Can someone comment on time.is?
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

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Azelio Boriani
2018-06-22 17:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Is time.is not accurate or your desktop's clock? Try https://uhr.ptb.de
Post by Brooke Clarke
I'm experimenting with a WSPR beacon transmitter and part of how it works depends on pushing the start button at exactly
2 seconds past the minute.
http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR
The problem is the transmitter (and the start button) are out in the forest where the antenna is located.
http://prc68.com/I/Images/TCI651TOA1s.jpg
SotaBeams, who make the WSPRlite transmitter recommends using http://time.is/ which seems to be accurate on my cell
phone but not on my desktop running the stock NTP.
Can someone comment on time.is?
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
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Andy Backus
2018-06-22 17:20:14 UTC
Permalink
A cheap WWVB watch will do the trick.


Andy Backus


________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-***@lists.febo.com> on behalf of Brooke Clarke <***@pacific.net>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Setting Time on WSPR Radio Transmitter

Hi:

I'm experimenting with a WSPR beacon transmitter and part of how it works depends on pushing the start button at exactly
2 seconds past the minute.
http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR

Digital Radio Modes - PRC68.com<http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR>
prc68.com
Background By using a digital mode where the signal bandwidth is narrower than the standard 300 Hz to 3,000 Hz voice bandwidth the signal to noise ratio can be improved thus working where voice will not work.



The problem is the transmitter (and the start button) are out in the forest where the antenna is located.
http://prc68.com/I/Images/TCI651TOA1s.jpg

SotaBeams, who make the WSPRlite transmitter recommends using http://time.is/ which seems to be accurate on my cell
phone but not on my desktop running the stock NTP.
Can someone comment on time.is?

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

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Donald E. Pauly
2018-06-22 18:17:24 UTC
Permalink
I was not aware of time.is but it is an Icelandic website. It is
maintained by a guy in Norway and the accuracy and reliability is not
known. I would use time.gov which is the NIST website. It is
corrected for network delay. A few years back I compared it with WWVB
on 60 kc and it was well within a tenth of a second. There have been
posts here of different computers giving errors of a few seconds on it
with different internet providers. I have seen discrepancies between
my cell phone and the wireless at MacDonalds for example. The trouble
seems to been caches of the website. Hit F5 for refresh and you
should get a fresh page. Just now my phone on Metro PCS and laptop on
wireless both agree with time.gov considering slight known errors.
Time.is shows my laptop to be slow by 0.87 seconds which is correct.
Do not trust the network time on your cell phone. I have seen them a
minute off. Usually cell phone time is within a couple of seconds
with my carrier. My phone is set to time.gov and not network time.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Azelio Boriani
Post by Azelio Boriani
Is time.is not accurate or your desktop's clock? Try https://uhr.ptb.de
Post by Brooke Clarke
I'm experimenting with a WSPR beacon transmitter and part of how it works depends on pushing the start button at exactly
2 seconds past the minute.
http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR
The problem is the transmitter (and the start button) are out in the forest where the antenna is located.
http://prc68.com/I/Images/TCI651TOA1s.jpg
SotaBeams, who make the WSPRlite transmitter recommends using http://time.is/ which seems to be accurate on my cell
phone but not on my desktop running the stock NTP.
Can someone comment on time.is?
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://lists.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://lists.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Clint Jay
2018-06-23 08:29:39 UTC
Permalink
I’m a regular WSPR and FT8 user and use Dimension4 to sync my PC clock,
time.is says the clock is ‘exact’ with errors in the single digit mS range
reported.

My results on WSPR/FT8 would suggest it works well enough and there doesn’t
seem to be any advantage in this application to seeking further improvement.
Post by Donald E. Pauly
I was not aware of time.is but it is an Icelandic website. It is
maintained by a guy in Norway and the accuracy and reliability is not
known. I would use time.gov which is the NIST website. It is
corrected for network delay. A few years back I compared it with WWVB
on 60 kc and it was well within a tenth of a second. There have been
posts here of different computers giving errors of a few seconds on it
with different internet providers. I have seen discrepancies between
my cell phone and the wireless at MacDonalds for example. The trouble
seems to been caches of the website. Hit F5 for refresh and you
should get a fresh page. Just now my phone on Metro PCS and laptop on
wireless both agree with time.gov considering slight known errors.
Time.is shows my laptop to be slow by 0.87 seconds which is correct.
Do not trust the network time on your cell phone. I have seen them a
minute off. Usually cell phone time is within a couple of seconds
with my carrier. My phone is set to time.gov and not network time.
On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Azelio Boriani
Post by Azelio Boriani
Is time.is not accurate or your desktop's clock? Try https://uhr.ptb.de
Post by Brooke Clarke
I'm experimenting with a WSPR beacon transmitter and part of how it
works depends on pushing the start button at exactly
Post by Azelio Boriani
Post by Brooke Clarke
2 seconds past the minute.
http://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR
The problem is the transmitter (and the start button) are out in the
forest where the antenna is located.
Post by Azelio Boriani
Post by Brooke Clarke
http://prc68.com/I/Images/TCI651TOA1s.jpg
SotaBeams, who make the WSPRlite transmitter recommends using
http://time.is/ which seems to be accurate on my cell
Post by Azelio Boriani
Post by Brooke Clarke
phone but not on my desktop running the stock NTP.
Can someone comment on time.is?
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to
https://lists.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Post by Azelio Boriani
Post by Brooke Clarke
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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Post by Azelio Boriani
and follow the instructions there.
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--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Bo Hansen
2018-06-23 09:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Hello Brooke

I do have some experience with beacon solutions that can also be used for WSPR among all the different modes available:

The Next Generation Beacons platform: <http://www.rudius.net/oz2m/ngnb> also used by some REAL time nuts :-)

PI4ino: <http://www.rudius.net/oz2m/pi4ino> OK not WSPR but PI4 but the principle is the same.

But I can't find much information about the technical capabilities of the WSPRLite in respect to what you need to know, e.g. what is the accuracy of the MCU clock, how does it perform vs temperature, is there an on-board external sync?

As pointed out by others the WSPR decoder accepts some time offset. But even if you start your WSPRLite at the correct second for how long will it stay inside the time capture window of WSPR before the above mentioned factors make it useless?

For another application I have built a GPS simulator that sends out NMEA frame. But after some time it has to be reset because the MCU ceramic resonator clock has drifted to much. I have made this last a bit longer by adjusting the 1 s interrupt controlling value but it still drifts.

For a remote operation I would not recommend a non synced device. As far as I can see there is no such possibility in the WSPRLite so a GNS controlled on/off-switch may be the way forward to make the WSPRLite start at the correct time over time. Far from elegant I must admit.

Bo, OZ2M


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Brooke Clarke
2018-06-25 22:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi:

I've uninstalled TimeSync from my cell phone since it needs the phone to be rooted in order to change the system time. 
In the rootless mode of TimeSync you can only get to 30 seconds of error and WSPR needs maybe a fraction of a second. 
There's a simple procedure to add a web page as an icon and I've done that for the time.is web page.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.


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Brooke Clarke
2018-06-26 00:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi again:

I've found out there are twoTimeSync time displays "Atomic time" and "system time".  System time can not be adjusted in
Android phones without rooting them, but the displayed "atomic time" is supposed to be the actual time, so this app can
be used to get an accurate display of the current time on a stock phone, it just can not adjust the stock phone's time
to better than 30 seconds.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------
Post by Brooke Clarke
I've uninstalled TimeSync from my cell phone since it needs the phone to be rooted in order to change the system
time.  In the rootless mode of TimeSync you can only get to 30 seconds of error and WSPR needs maybe a fraction of a
second.  There's a simple procedure to add a web page as an icon and I've done that for the time.is web page.
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djl
2018-06-26 03:00:12 UTC
Permalink
I really like an Android app called "Sol et Umbra" get pro no ads. got
more time info than one can use... Particularly like the Islam prayer
times, because at the midday prayer time, a stick in the ground will
give an accurate local n-s shadow.
Don
Post by Brooke Clarke
I've found out there are twoTimeSync time displays "Atomic time" and
"system time".  System time can not be adjusted in Android phones
without rooting them, but the displayed "atomic time" is supposed to
be the actual time, so this app can be used to get an accurate display
of the current time on a stock phone, it just can not adjust the stock
phone's time to better than 30 seconds.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be
limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
-------- Original Message --------
Post by Brooke Clarke
I've uninstalled TimeSync from my cell phone since it needs the phone
to be rooted in order to change the system time.  In the rootless mode
of TimeSync you can only get to 30 seconds of error and WSPR needs
maybe a fraction of a second.  There's a simple procedure to add a web
page as an icon and I've done that for the time.is web page.
_______________________________________________
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--
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304

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Dave B via time-nuts
2018-06-26 16:26:35 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what cellular carrier you are using, but GSM phones can use
"System" (as in GSM system, GPS disciplined) as their time source, and
it works very well to within a small fraction of a second.   Well, here
in the UK, Europe and Turkey where I've travelled to in the recent past,
and the phone(s) all sync up to "local" time automatically just fine.  
Even the last trip to the US two+ years ago, the phones "just worked and
sync'd OK, all by themselves.

Check your Android system settings, under System, then Date and Time. 
Enable "Automatic date & time (Use Network-provided time)".

At least that's how it works on my Motorola, and with similar settings
on a Samsung I carry for work.

If you're not using a GSM system, then sorry for the above spurious.  If
you are using a GSM system, then perhaps the carrier has got it wrong,
or your phone is faulty, or has crypto-mining malware resident using all
the CPU.  (Android has an open port issue, visible over WiFi it seems,
but not usually over the cellular link.)

I wouldn’t bother trying to use NTP over a mobile data channel anyway. 
The ping to ping latency is "very" variable as you are usually proxied
to hell and back through many network routers and filters, that's if
they don't block such use.  And especially if you are on the edge of
coverage.

As to time setting for portable PC based WSPR etc.  Just use a common or
garden GPS RX, that can talk to the PC.  And any of the common software
tools that can jam the system clock to sync to the reported time from
the GPS.  PPS lines are nice, but for WSPR and the JT modes, that sort
of accuracy isn't needed.

In the shack, just point your PC's to use the ntp pool project
(pool.ntp.org) even Windows manages that OK.  Don’t bother with the
default Windows time servers, they are effectively DDoS'ed off the
planet by the gazillions of other machines trying to get time.

If you absolutely need to (due to a very sloppy CPU/system clock) then
edit the registry to increase the frequency of NTP poll's to keep the
time up to date.   Google is your friend, as always.

The ultimate convenience, for portability, and psuedo timenuts accuracy
(should you need) is one of Leo Bodnar's LeoNTP devices.  A portable GPS
driven NTP server.   Job done.   (No affiliation.)

Regards.

Dave B.
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Setting Time on WSPR Radio Transmitter
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I've found out there are twoTimeSync time displays "Atomic time" and "system time".  System time can not be adjusted in
Android phones without rooting them, but the displayed "atomic time" is supposed to be the actual time, so this app can
be used to get an accurate display of the current time on a stock phone, it just can not adjust the stock phone's time
to better than 30 seconds.
--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software.
::

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Van Horn, David
2018-06-26 16:29:49 UTC
Permalink
I have wondered if a slightly incorrect time on the phone might point to use of a "Stingray" or similar device.

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Magnus Danielson
2018-07-04 18:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Van Horn, David
I have wondered if a slightly incorrect time on the phone might point to use of a "Stingray" or similar device.
No, some networks have terrible time-offsets.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Scott McGrath
2018-07-04 20:10:43 UTC
Permalink
WRT to ‘stingray’

As Magnus points out some networks have issues with time offsets. Other issues include malware on Android phones.

But if you are in an area ‘known’ for use of ‘stingrays’ like Washington DC. the most common signs are data mode dropping from LTE to 2-3G data or even 1G data. Or for handsets offering encryption having it disable.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Jul 4, 2018, at 2:57 PM, Magnus Danielson <***@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

Hi,
Post by Van Horn, David
I have wondered if a slightly incorrect time on the phone might point to use of a "Stingray" or similar device.
No, some networks have terrible time-offsets.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Gabs Ricalde
2018-06-27 15:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brooke Clarke
Can someone comment on time.is?
I looked inside time.is, it is using NTP like techniques for
estimating the local time offset. Two requests for the server time are
sent and the response with the smallest round trip time (RTT) is used.
The displayed values are:
difference = local time after receiving response - server time in
response - RTT/2
accuracy = max((RTT - 116 ms)/2, 10 ms)

The description above may not be complete or accurate.
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