Discussion:
HP 86784A manual
(too old to reply)
Magnus Danielson
2018-07-13 15:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Somewhat time-nuts related, do any of you guys have manuals for HP 86784A?

It came along with an HP 8770A.

I'd like to put them to use.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Bill Hawkins
2018-08-12 23:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Group,

This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/

It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap "atomic" clocks.

One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress.

Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House.

Can anyone clarify the situation?

Bill Hawkins
Sent from my retirement home in MN

Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss when something familiar goes away.


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Wes
2018-08-13 00:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience.  Many years
ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned WWV and
asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE, blah blah.
This had worked before at other installations (not NAA however) including the
Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a splashdown.

The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't give
tours.  I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he said,
"Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
unlocked.  If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but please
stay in your car."  So we did.

Wes



On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at
>
> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/


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paul swed
2018-08-13 01:46:40 UTC
Permalink
What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the
service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind
of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be
a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically
see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I
think thats very very early.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes <***@triconet.org> wrote:

> Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many
> years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned
> WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE,
> blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA however)
> including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
> splashdown.
>
> The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't
> give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he said,
> "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
> unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
> please stay in your car." So we did.
>
> Wes
>
>
>
> On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>
>>
>> Group,
>>
>> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with
>> comments at
>>
>> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
>> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
2018-08-13 01:55:38 UTC
Permalink
I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
has some up.

I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
it can receive ok). At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
for most.

73's,
John
AJ6BC



On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, paul swed <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the
> service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind
> of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
> Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be
> a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically
> see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I
> think thats very very early.
>
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes <***@triconet.org> wrote:
>
> > Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many
> > years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned
> > WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE,
> > blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA
> however)
> > including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
> > splashdown.
> >
> > The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't
> > give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he
> said,
> > "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
> > unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
> > please stay in your car." So we did.
> >
> > Wes
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Group,
> >>
> >> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with
> >> comments at
> >>
> >> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
> >> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Richard (Rick) Karlquist
2018-08-13 04:28:25 UTC
Permalink
On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.

W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.

OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
don't need more accuracy.

Rick N6RK

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Tim Shoppa
2018-08-13 12:07:21 UTC
Permalink
While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all) professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over sometimes WIFI in the past decade.

WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a clock in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF or GOES antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has multiplied exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally ubiquitous in commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE NTP clock display.

While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is not so obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery that only has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks in wood buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only solution. But I could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its WIFI for a minute each day to resync and was battery powered.

Tim N3QE

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <***@karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
>
> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
>
> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
> don't need more accuracy.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

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Nick Sayer via time-nuts
2018-09-07 20:24:27 UTC
Permalink
My own perspective is that embedded devices with WiFi present a monstrous user interface barrier. You have to somehow communicate the WiFi SSID and WPA credentials to the device. Some embedded things have displays and input methods and can at least use the “ouija board” method (which is still a pain in the keister), but truly embedded things like wall clocks? There you’re going to have to rely on ugly hacks like “set up networks” with web servers running on them and so on. It’s a mess at best.

Where the embedded device provides value sufficient to overcome the barriers, then it makes sense. I have a whole bunch of IoT devices in our house and the added convenience they give made it absolutely worth the configuration steps asked. But a wall clock? I can imagine the negative Amazon reviews already.

Others have argued for GPS clocks. GPS is certainly an alternative to WWVB, but it has a different set of challenges and benefits. It’s far, far more accurate, but it’s also more expensive, requires better antenna placement and requires enough power that a battery operated clock isn’t terribly practical, certainly compared to WWVB.

I can *kinda* see the impetus behind shuttering WWVH and perhaps WWV. But WWVB is currently used by hundreds of thousands if not millions of devices. I think it’s kind of a rotten deal to just pull the plug on them without at least a number of years of warning.

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 5:07 AM, Tim Shoppa <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all) professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over sometimes WIFI in the past decade.
>
> WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a clock in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF or GOES antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has multiplied exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally ubiquitous in commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE NTP clock display.
>
> While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is not so obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery that only has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks in wood buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only solution. But I could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its WIFI for a minute each day to resync and was battery powered.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <***@karlquist.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
>>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
>>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
>>
>> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
>> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
>>
>> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
>> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
>> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
>> don't need more accuracy.
>>
>> Rick N6RK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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paul swed
2018-09-07 21:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Nick
Been watching the thread and building a replacement for wwvb. Cause darn it
I like my spot specific always accurate clocks. However that said the next
generations of time users for general life only have one clock and its next
to their keister. They are mobile and heavens actually getting to a meeting
on time is not as important as finishing that text. I believe our
perspective is seriously skewed by time. The fact that the mobile clock is
a bit one way or another just isn't much of a factor. Mobile phone time is
good enough.
There are lots of changes going on such as watching video whenever and
however at anytime.
So after I figure how to get a bit of 60 KHz energy going around the house,
it will be off to making a local wwv replacement.
The old radios just don't have a ethernet port on them. Ticks are easy the
voice really tough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
time-***@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> My own perspective is that embedded devices with WiFi present a monstrous
> user interface barrier. You have to somehow communicate the WiFi SSID and
> WPA credentials to the device. Some embedded things have displays and input
> methods and can at least use the “ouija board” method (which is still a
> pain in the keister), but truly embedded things like wall clocks? There
> you’re going to have to rely on ugly hacks like “set up networks” with web
> servers running on them and so on. It’s a mess at best.
>
> Where the embedded device provides value sufficient to overcome the
> barriers, then it makes sense. I have a whole bunch of IoT devices in our
> house and the added convenience they give made it absolutely worth the
> configuration steps asked. But a wall clock? I can imagine the negative
> Amazon reviews already.
>
> Others have argued for GPS clocks. GPS is certainly an alternative to
> WWVB, but it has a different set of challenges and benefits. It’s far, far
> more accurate, but it’s also more expensive, requires better antenna
> placement and requires enough power that a battery operated clock isn’t
> terribly practical, certainly compared to WWVB.
>
> I can *kinda* see the impetus behind shuttering WWVH and perhaps WWV. But
> WWVB is currently used by hundreds of thousands if not millions of devices.
> I think it’s kind of a rotten deal to just pull the plug on them without at
> least a number of years of warning.
>
> > On Aug 13, 2018, at 5:07 AM, Tim Shoppa <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all)
> professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over
> sometimes WIFI in the past decade.
> >
> > WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a
> clock in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF
> or GOES antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has
> multiplied exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally
> ubiquitous in commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE
> NTP clock display.
> >
> > While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is
> not so obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery
> that only has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks
> in wood buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only
> solution. But I could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its
> WIFI for a minute each day to resync and was battery powered.
> >
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> >> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> ***@karlquist.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> >>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask,
> 'How
> >>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV
> on
> >>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
> >>
> >> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
> >> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
> >>
> >> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
> >> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
> >> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
> >> don't need more accuracy.
> >>
> >> Rick N6RK
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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Nick Sayer via time-nuts
2018-09-07 23:58:55 UTC
Permalink
I don’t know if it’s on-topic or not, but my talking clock now has a WWV #define for the firmware. Mind you, all that really does is change it to 59 ticks and one beep and a single time announcement in the last 10 seconds of the minute.

https://hackaday.io/project/28949-gps-talking-clock

> On Sep 7, 2018, at 2:49 PM, paul swed <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nick
> Been watching the thread and building a replacement for wwvb. Cause darn it
> I like my spot specific always accurate clocks. However that said the next
> generations of time users for general life only have one clock and its next
> to their keister. They are mobile and heavens actually getting to a meeting
> on time is not as important as finishing that text. I believe our
> perspective is seriously skewed by time. The fact that the mobile clock is
> a bit one way or another just isn't much of a factor. Mobile phone time is
> good enough.
> There are lots of changes going on such as watching video whenever and
> however at anytime.
> So after I figure how to get a bit of 60 KHz energy going around the house,
> it will be off to making a local wwv replacement.
> The old radios just don't have a ethernet port on them. Ticks are easy the
> voice really tough.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
> time-***@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
>> My own perspective is that embedded devices with WiFi present a monstrous
>> user interface barrier. You have to somehow communicate the WiFi SSID and
>> WPA credentials to the device. Some embedded things have displays and input
>> methods and can at least use the “ouija board” method (which is still a
>> pain in the keister), but truly embedded things like wall clocks? There
>> you’re going to have to rely on ugly hacks like “set up networks” with web
>> servers running on them and so on. It’s a mess at best.
>>
>> Where the embedded device provides value sufficient to overcome the
>> barriers, then it makes sense. I have a whole bunch of IoT devices in our
>> house and the added convenience they give made it absolutely worth the
>> configuration steps asked. But a wall clock? I can imagine the negative
>> Amazon reviews already.
>>
>> Others have argued for GPS clocks. GPS is certainly an alternative to
>> WWVB, but it has a different set of challenges and benefits. It’s far, far
>> more accurate, but it’s also more expensive, requires better antenna
>> placement and requires enough power that a battery operated clock isn’t
>> terribly practical, certainly compared to WWVB.
>>
>> I can *kinda* see the impetus behind shuttering WWVH and perhaps WWV. But
>> WWVB is currently used by hundreds of thousands if not millions of devices.
>> I think it’s kind of a rotten deal to just pull the plug on them without at
>> least a number of years of warning.
>>
>>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 5:07 AM, Tim Shoppa <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all)
>> professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over
>> sometimes WIFI in the past decade.
>>>
>>> WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a
>> clock in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF
>> or GOES antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has
>> multiplied exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally
>> ubiquitous in commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE
>> NTP clock display.
>>>
>>> While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is
>> not so obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery
>> that only has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks
>> in wood buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only
>> solution. But I could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its
>> WIFI for a minute each day to resync and was battery powered.
>>>
>>> Tim N3QE
>>>
>>>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
>> ***@karlquist.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>>>>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask,
>> 'How
>>>>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV
>> on
>>>>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
>>>>
>>>> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
>>>> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
>>>> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
>>>> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
>>>> don't need more accuracy.
>>>>
>>>> Rick N6RK
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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Peter Laws
2018-09-07 22:27:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM paul swed <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mobile phone time is good enough.

And is often pretty darn good.

Should WWVB go off the air (and it's far from certain that it will),
there might be a market for a USB dongle that plugs into a PC that
outputs the correct code on 60 kHz. I'm sure there is an FCC Part 15
specification that is lenient enough to prevent the transmitter
doesn't run afoul of intentional radiator rules but that still allows
clocks in an average house to see the signal.

The problem with marketing that product is that while there are (say)
10 million WWVB clocks in US homes, there are only 27 people (not
counting time-nuts subscribers and employees of NIST) who know that
those clocks are disciplined by a government radio station. When they
stop receiving the signal, most of those 10 million clocks will be
discarded because the owners will assume that "the atoms in the atomic
clock finally ran out" ("Ah never did think Mildred was too smart
bringin' in that atomic clock what with the radon and all.")

I'm not certain a product with a potential market of 27 people (plus
time-nuts subscribers and the still-employed NIST employees) is enough
to make it worthwhile.

But if WWVB does go dark, I would like one of the dongles so my mantel
clock will keep good time.

--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Clay Autery
2018-08-13 04:07:29 UTC
Permalink
And don't forget 25 MHz....  they put that back on the air a year or so
ago...

Crazy idea!  I own multiple frequency references, time servers, et al.
instrumentation and I STILL use WWV all the time to verify that my
radios and clocks are IN FACT close to perfect.

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 12-Aug-18 20:55, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
> Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
> miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
> has some up.
>
> I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
> gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
> shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
> it can receive ok). At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
> for most.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
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Scott McGrath
2018-08-13 15:15:47 UTC
Permalink
This has ‘empty suit’ written all over it ,’move it to the $BUZZWORD

Yes the LORAN shutdown was more impactful from a time transfer PoV but the NIST transmitters provide a crude backup and valuable scientific data with a long baseline

In NH we’ve had an unusually severe summer WRT weather events I normally have FIOS based 1gb internet connection which has now been down for 6 weeks. It might be restored this week because new poles have been installed.

So Wife still has TV only because I maintained our satellite/Terrestrial system in readiness.

As for internet well I’m still running on a couple of Cradlepoint LTE gateways with yagi’s pointing at nearest tower and available bandwidth ranges from 100kb to 5mb with wild swings.

Putting all ones technical eggs in one basket is a bad idea from an operational and technical point of view.

What happens if a solar storm makes civillian GPS unavailable, Hmm. Cell networks start going down as the GPSDO’s start drifting, Kerberos authenticators begin to fail as wide area networks depending on GPS derived timing begin to drift (servers have CHEAP oscillators).

The rush to GPS based network timing is not a good idea, We should be adding more wide area frequency sources not taking them away.

The NIST transmitters are very useful in calculating propagation and some sites have decades of data on this so its worth having them around for purely scientific reasons even though the technology of time and frequency transfer have moved forward.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Aug 12, 2018, at 9:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <***@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
has some up.

I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
it can receive ok). At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
for most.

73's,
John
AJ6BC



> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, paul swed <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the
> service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind
> of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
> Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be
> a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically
> see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I
> think thats very very early.
>
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes <***@triconet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many
>> years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned
>> WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE,
>> blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA
> however)
>> including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
>> splashdown.
>>
>> The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't
>> give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he
> said,
>> "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
>> unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
>> please stay in your car." So we did.
>>
>> Wes
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Group,
>>>
>>> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with
>>> comments at
>>>
>>> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
>>> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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an
Bob kb8tq
2018-08-13 23:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi

One of the many reasons the world has GPSDO’s is to “smooth out” various sorts of GPS outages. Performance in holdover varies
as does the “what’s in the box” part. As Time Nuts we tend to ignore the holdover features and just use GPSDO’s as running filters.
That’s reasonable, mainly because it’s been shown to work for several decades.

Solar flares do not go on for days or weeks. They are relatively brief events compared to the 1 to 10 day holdover targets for most
GPSDO’s. The satellites themselves (for various reasons) are quite happy to run all by themselves for weeks. I’m sure there’s some
“aw shucks” degradation in timing and navigation accuracy. How much it is …. who knows. What is known is that both timing and
nav are “good enough” for practical applications. Bottom line - you have to have a *really* crazy event to even get a hiccup. To get
a full up failure this way …. it’s a mega event.

At the levels required to really take out sat systems for a while, solar flares also interact with the power grid. Higher energy flares
mean greater risk to the grid. Get into the mega region and big chunks of electrical distribution gear get fried. My guess is that once
you loose the power grid (and can’t get it back up), the issues of cell signals being wonky will be very small tick way down the list.

Bob


> On Aug 13, 2018, at 11:15 AM, Scott McGrath <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This has ‘empty suit’ written all over it ,’move it to the $BUZZWORD
>
> Yes the LORAN shutdown was more impactful from a time transfer PoV but the NIST transmitters provide a crude backup and valuable scientific data with a long baseline
>
> In NH we’ve had an unusually severe summer WRT weather events I normally have FIOS based 1gb internet connection which has now been down for 6 weeks. It might be restored this week because new poles have been installed.
>
> So Wife still has TV only because I maintained our satellite/Terrestrial system in readiness.
>
> As for internet well I’m still running on a couple of Cradlepoint LTE gateways with yagi’s pointing at nearest tower and available bandwidth ranges from 100kb to 5mb with wild swings.
>
> Putting all ones technical eggs in one basket is a bad idea from an operational and technical point of view.
>
> What happens if a solar storm makes civillian GPS unavailable, Hmm. Cell networks start going down as the GPSDO’s start drifting, Kerberos authenticators begin to fail as wide area networks depending on GPS derived timing begin to drift (servers have CHEAP oscillators).
>
> The rush to GPS based network timing is not a good idea, We should be adding more wide area frequency sources not taking them away.
>
> The NIST transmitters are very useful in calculating propagation and some sites have decades of data on this so its worth having them around for purely scientific reasons even though the technology of time and frequency transfer have moved forward.
>
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
>
> On Aug 12, 2018, at 9:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <***@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
> Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
> miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
> has some up.
>
> I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
> gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
> shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
> it can receive ok). At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
> for most.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, paul swed <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the
>> service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind
>> of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
>> Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be
>> a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically
>> see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I
>> think thats very very early.
>>
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes <***@triconet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many
>>> years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned
>>> WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE,
>>> blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA
>> however)
>>> including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
>>> splashdown.
>>>
>>> The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't
>>> give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he
>> said,
>>> "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
>>> unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
>>> please stay in your car." So we did.
>>>
>>> Wes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Group,
>>>>
>>>> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with
>>>> comments at
>>>>
>>>> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
>>>> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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djl
2018-08-13 03:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Well, maybe NIST wants to cut, and maybe not. What happens is, in zero
based budgeting, the chain of command will pass down the line requests
for budgets for the coming year with cuts of varying depth. After a
couple of cuts everywhere, travel for example, an agency will seek
programs that can be cut and managers will have to make several
suggested budgets. I have done this, and have had to cut as much as 30
percent out of mine. Since budget cuts are very hard to use as reason
for layoffs, operating funds have to take up the slack. So this may not
come to anything.
The land, if not leased, is probably managed by the GSA, an arm of
Congress rather than the executive branch. I'll bet most of you can
figure out why this is so. NIST will not see a dime from any sale.
Anyway, that's an end to my contributions to this thread.
Selah.
Don

On 2018-08-12 19:46, paul swed wrote:
> What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut
> the
> service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is
> kind
> of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
> Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there
> might be
> a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we
> typically
> see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee
> service. I
> think thats very very early.
>
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes <***@triconet.org> wrote:
>
>> Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience.
>> Many
>> years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I
>> telephoned
>> WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an
>> EE,
>> blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA
>> however)
>> including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
>> splashdown.
>>
>> The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they
>> didn't
>> give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he
>> said,
>> "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate
>> is
>> unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
>> please stay in your car." So we did.
>>
>> Wes
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Group,
>>>
>>> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with
>>> comments at
>>>
>>> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
>>> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

--
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


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Richard Solomon
2018-08-12 23:21:15 UTC
Permalink
With the time keeping capability of GPS, isn't WWV obsolete ??


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-***@lists.febo.com> on behalf of Bill Hawkins <***@pobox.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 4:05:57 PM
To: time-***@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii



Group,

This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/

It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap "atomic" clocks.

One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress.

Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House.

Can anyone clarify the situation?

Bill Hawkins
Sent from my retirement home in MN

Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss when something familiar goes away.


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jimlux
2018-08-13 13:02:53 UTC
Permalink
On 8/12/18 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>
>
> Group,
>
> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at
>
> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>
> It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap "atomic" clocks.
>
> One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress.

Not exactly.. I've been involved in very low level tiers of budget
making - technically known as the PPBE (Planning, programming,
budgeting, and execution) process.

What happens is that about 2 years ahead of time (i.e. right now, you'd
be working on PPBE for 2020) you flow your approximate budget requests
up your chain and there's some preliminary churning and allocation at
higher levels based on conversations with their higher levels, in terms
of agency priorities, strategic goals, ongoing programs, etc.
Ultimately, it's the White House that decides what "the mark" will be at
some level of detail. That gets flowed back down do all the
organizations and divided and subdivided, following the "guidance" from
above and providing guidance to those below. This typically happens
around November/December You prepare your plans and budget based on
that (over the holidays, often) to turn in a draft in January/February
(now in 2019), which gets rolled up with other folks plans and budgets,
and reviewed in the March/April time frame, which then gets rolled up,
and becomes part of the President's Request. In a perfect world,
Congress then funds all or part of the request, perhaps adding some
specific direction (famously: thou shalt build a magnificent large
rocket using Shuttle Derived components), which is never identical to
the request - the agency then flows the actual approval back down,
adjusting the requests you made earlier, and Gods willing and the river
don't rise, at the beginning of the Fiscal Year (October 1st) you get
your first increment of funding and your budget for the coming year
(FY20 in this example).

Some budgets are "competed" - i.e. the agency says "we want to fund a
series of missions to understand stellar debris for not to exceed $150M,
each, with a program cost of $400M, beginning in 2021 and launching in
2025" - The President sends that request to Congress, they approve it,
the agency issues a RFP (or Announcement of Opportunity - AO), people
write proposals, they get evaluated, and the selected project(s)'s
proposal(s) become part of a program budget, etc.

A huge, huge wrench in the works is that often Congress can get their
job done and actually pass the required budget bills. What hopefully
happens is that they pass a "continuing resolution" (CR) which basically
funds the agency at the same level as the previous year, and which has
the requirement that no program can terminate nor start.

So, if your $150M mission is part of a "new start", and Congress does
the CR thing, your mission funding won't materialize on schedule. Or,
if you were planning on decommissioning something (so that you could use
the funding on something else) - on a CR, you can't do that. When the
thing is a "big thing" (say, like Space Shuttle, with $B/year budgets)
that has quite a ripple effect.

Congress also gets involved if a program runs seriously over budget -
they have to re-authorize - or for building and demolishing permanent
structures. The latter is why government agencies have been finding
rental space if they can.


>
> Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House.
>
> Can anyone clarify the situation?
>
> Bill Hawkins
> Sent from my retirement home in MN
>
> Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss when something familiar goes away.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


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ew via time-nuts
2018-08-13 13:16:00 UTC
Permalink
I used to live in Miami and now 80 miles north in homes made of steel  reinforced concrete blocks. Junghans considered Miami worse case in the US and came there before introduction of their wrist watch with antenna in the arm band.. The Junghans clocks have worked flawless since then with multiple walls between WWVB and any location in my home. Same goes for a no name wall clock I got three years ago.
Watches the leather armbands deteriorated over time.
An external ferite rod worked great for frequency along a Tracor Omega receiver for 42 years.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 8/13/2018 8:08:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, ***@gmail.com writes:

 
While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all) professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over sometimes WIFI in the past decade.

WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a clock in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF or GOES antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has multiplied exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally ubiquitous in commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE NTP clock display.

While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is not so obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery that only has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks in wood buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only solution. But I could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its WIFI for a minute each day to resync and was battery powered.

Tim N3QE

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <***@karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
>
> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
>
> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
> don't need more accuracy.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> _______________________________________________
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