Discussion:
HP 5372A
(too old to reply)
Bob kb8tq
2018-05-11 18:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Well, having actually run FMT virtually “in the back yard” of the transmitting station …. it’s surprising
what 70 miles will do. In this case, back yard really does mean on the premises. There is a lot that
gets into even fairly sort distance propagation.

Bob
If you were in Connie’s back yard or had a very stable ground wave, then yes, you could automate the testing.
There are a number of challenges with this method as looking at the data with a simple graph will tell. You might have large fluctuations on the high frequency side only, for instance, that any averaging or algorithm would assume to be valid data.
The next issue is the length of the dataset as the key-down time is only a few minutes so you end-up with not that many samples.
Regards,
Jerry
Hi Magnus...
Appreciate any help!
I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
and I would like to automate the measuring process.
I have two frequencies, A and B...
A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
that I can measure AM stations without the
annoying beat note. ;-)
B is an IF signal which should appear between
455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
delta, over a manually started and automatically
stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
developed by the box.
Now, there will be doppler. I want the box
to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
for the B minus A delta.
BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
target signal.
The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
or below the "target" frequency.
I will be tuned below the "target" and within
1 Hz of the "target."
I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
Can the box give me the desired resolution?
What sampling period would be the best to use?
What statistical result would I use as my delta?
Appreciate your help. My head is spinning whenever I
get into the operating manual!
TNX...
73
Don
W4WJ
Hi,
What issues do you have?
Cheers,
Magnus
Hello Time Nuts...
Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
I have some operational questions. ;-)
email off list please. w4wj at aol.com
TNX all...
73
Don
W4WJ
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Jerry Hancock
2018-05-11 18:05:54 UTC
Permalink
By the way, if you would like some data captured during the last run, let me know. I have an excel sheet of the peak data from spectrum lab centered on 1850hz as I use the 3586B receiver.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
***@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779
If you were in Connie’s back yard or had a very stable ground wave, then yes, you could automate the testing.
There are a number of challenges with this method as looking at the data with a simple graph will tell. You might have large fluctuations on the high frequency side only, for instance, that any averaging or algorithm would assume to be valid data.
The next issue is the length of the dataset as the key-down time is only a few minutes so you end-up with not that many samples.
Regards,
Jerry
Hi Magnus...
Appreciate any help!
I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
and I would like to automate the measuring process.
I have two frequencies, A and B...
A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
that I can measure AM stations without the
annoying beat note. ;-)
B is an IF signal which should appear between
455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
delta, over a manually started and automatically
stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
developed by the box.
Now, there will be doppler. I want the box
to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
for the B minus A delta.
BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
target signal.
The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
or below the "target" frequency.
I will be tuned below the "target" and within
1 Hz of the "target."
I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
Can the box give me the desired resolution?
What sampling period would be the best to use?
What statistical result would I use as my delta?
Appreciate your help. My head is spinning whenever I
get into the operating manual!
TNX...
73
Don
W4WJ
Hi,
What issues do you have?
Cheers,
Magnus
Hello Time Nuts...
Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
I have some operational questions. ;-)
email off list please. w4wj at aol.com
TNX all...
73
Don
W4WJ
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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and follow the instructions there.
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Bob kb8tq
2018-05-11 19:45:16 UTC
Permalink
HI
Hi Don,
Hi Magnus...
Appreciate any help!
I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
and I would like to automate the measuring process.
I have two frequencies, A and B...
A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
that I can measure AM stations without the
annoying beat note. ;-)
B is an IF signal which should appear between
455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
delta, over a manually started and automatically
stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
developed by the box.
There is no point in using two channels and a generator.
You can do that straight out of the box just by locking it to the GPS,
which you should do anyway.
Just measure the signal. Using the Math you can subtract or add whatever
frequency you want. You can get A-B or B-A measures in Frequency mode,
it's just not necessary.
Now, you want to use the single-shot run mode.
It should be relative trivial to setup a large number of samples with a
suitable distance inbetween them.
Getting 1 mHz resolution isn't too hard that way, considering you have
110 s of time to do it.
Now, there will be doppler. I want the box
to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
for the B minus A delta.
Now, doppler is tricky, as the HP5372A in all its glory does not have
built-in compensation for it, and besides, you need to figure out where
the true zero is.
What the box will give you is a frequency estimation assuming doppler
free conditions. If you want to do smarter things, you need to pull the
data off the counter in binary form and post-process it yourself. The
programmers manual for the HP5372A is a great teaching tool for how
these beasts process stuff.
BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
target signal.
For sure. This is BTW something you can do in the Math part of the
HP5372A, so you can have it crunch out the right value straight out.
The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
or below the "target" frequency.
I will be tuned below the "target" and within
1 Hz of the "target."
I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
Can the box give me the desired resolution?
Sure, assuming the doppler limitation.
What sampling period would be the best to use?
Use one short enough to get as many sample points over the 110 s you want.
The 110 seconds is the big gotcha here. What you really want is a unified record
of the entire time they are transmitting. If it’s less than 2 minutes, you are fine. If
it runs for 5, 10 or 15 minutes that’s not quite so good. Stitching data together
gets you back to binary dumps and a lot of post processing. Once you do that,
there really is no advantage over a SDR running on the same signal.

Bob
What statistical result would I use as my delta?
Mean value on the Statistics display. It's a linear regression result,
which has good processing gain for frequency.
Appreciate your help. My head is spinning whenever I
get into the operating manual!
It's a beast, for sure. It took some time to master, but it's a lovely
tool when you understand it and accept it's up-front complexity.
I could maybe take mine for a test-spin somewhat later.
Cheers,
Magnus
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Poul-Henning Kamp
2018-05-11 18:24:32 UTC
Permalink
--------

If want to exploit what the 5372A can do in FMT-context, you should
feed it the amplified and band-pass filtered RF (rather than some
down-converted and otherwise mangled version of the signal) and
capture timing of the actual zero-crossings and post-process that.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
***@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Magnus Danielson
2018-05-10 07:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

What issues do you have?

Cheers,
Magnus
Hello Time Nuts...
 
Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
 
I have some operational questions.  ;-)
 
email off list please.  w4wj at aol.com
 
TNX all...
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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Dana Whitlow
2018-05-11 18:21:13 UTC
Permalink
When I was working at the Arecibo Observatory and we were running the
ionospheric heater
at 5.1 MHz (think Mini-HAARP), I'd sometimes go home (about 3 miles away)
and listen to the
signal there. There was frequently substantial random fading of the
signal, suggesting that I
was hearing the vector sum of an NVIS signal off the ionosphere and the
usual sidelobe leakage
from the dish. Said fading could be said to have a characteristic period
of around 1 or 2 seconds,
and was occasionally quite deep.

So, I'm definitely a believer in short path propagation variations.

Dana K8YUM
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Well, having actually run FMT virtually “in the back yard” of the
transmitting station …. it’s surprising
what 70 miles will do. In this case, back yard really does mean on the
premises. There is a lot that
gets into even fairly sort distance propagation.
Bob
If you were in Connie’s back yard or had a very stable ground wave, then
yes, you could automate the testing.
There are a number of challenges with this method as looking at the data
with a simple graph will tell. You might have large fluctuations on the
high frequency side only, for instance, that any averaging or algorithm
would assume to be valid data.
The next issue is the length of the dataset as the key-down time is only
a few minutes so you end-up with not that many samples.
Regards,
Jerry
On May 10, 2018, at 5:59 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts <
Hi Magnus...
Appreciate any help!
I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
and I would like to automate the measuring process.
I have two frequencies, A and B...
A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
that I can measure AM stations without the
annoying beat note. ;-)
B is an IF signal which should appear between
455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
delta, over a manually started and automatically
stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
developed by the box.
Now, there will be doppler. I want the box
to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
for the B minus A delta.
BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
target signal.
The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
or below the "target" frequency.
I will be tuned below the "target" and within
1 Hz of the "target."
I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
Can the box give me the desired resolution?
What sampling period would be the best to use?
What statistical result would I use as my delta?
Appreciate your help. My head is spinning whenever I
get into the operating manual!
TNX...
73
Don
W4WJ
In a message dated 5/10/2018 2:19:49 AM Central Standard Time,
Hi,
What issues do you have?
Cheers,
Magnus
Hello Time Nuts...
Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
I have some operational questions. ;-)
email off list please. w4wj at aol.com
TNX all...
73
Don
W4WJ
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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