Discussion:
Raw phase data of super-5065
(too old to reply)
Attila Kinali
2018-06-04 08:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Hoi zäme!

Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
with me? The longer the data trace, the better.

Thanks in advance!

Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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c***@juno.com
2018-06-05 16:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Attila,

I will send you some raw data.

Attached is a combined plot of a recent successful filter installation.

Only 20 to 25% of units will be improved with the filter mod.

Two things to look for.

1- The short term stability at 1 Sec (Allan Deviation) should drop from
the 2X10-12th range down to the mid -13ths.

2- The Allan Deviation plot should drop into the -14ths between 32 and 64
Seconds.

#1 is easily tested but not many have a reference to test #2 against.

Also as Bob indicated longer term plots need to be in a benign
environmental setting.

Cheers,

Corby
Bob kb8tq
2018-06-05 14:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi

It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
likely would have given you different long term data as a result.

If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
I suspect you will find correlations ….

Bob

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Hi Attila,
> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>
> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>
> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> Regards,
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hoi zäme!
>
> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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t***@timeok.it
2018-06-06 06:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
Luciano


Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
Cc
Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
Hi

It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
likely would have given you different long term data as a result.

If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
I suspect you will find correlations ….

Bob

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Hi Attila,
> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>
> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>
> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> Regards,
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hoi zäme!
>
> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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Bob kb8tq
2018-06-06 13:21:11 UTC
Permalink
HI

> On Jun 6, 2018, at 2:18 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
>
> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
>
> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
>
> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
>
> Luciano


Since my basement does one set of things ( temperature / humidity / pressure ) and somebody else runs in the garage ( different temperature / humidity / pressure)
the data will be very specific to a single set of environmental conditions. Temperature is relatively easy to monitor, humidity and pressure are a bit more complex.
At least logging them so people can compare your setting to there’s does need to be part of the process.

Bob

>
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi
>
> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>
> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> I suspect you will find correlations ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Attila,
> > I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> > This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
> >
> > Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
> >
> > From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> > It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> > The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> > Regards,
> > Luciano
> >
> >
> > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> > A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> > Cc
> > Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> > Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> > Hoi zäme!
> >
> > Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> > and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> > with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>

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t***@timeok.it
2018-06-08 11:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I have four EROS 5MHz oscillator brand new. The external connections are via an octal connector.
On the top there are coarse and fine tuning trim.
Does anyone have the pin connection and technical data?
Thank you
Luciano
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t***@timeok.it
2018-06-08 12:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
Luciano


Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
A ***@n1k.org
Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065

Hi,

certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
Luciano


Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
Cc
Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
Hi

It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
likely would have given you different long term data as a result.

If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
I suspect you will find correlations 
.

Bob

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Hi Attila,
> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>
> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>
> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> Regards,
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hoi zÀme!
>
> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Bob kb8tq
2018-06-08 13:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Ok, so this question should not come as a great surprise: Does one of the 5065’s have about 3X the temperature
sensitivity of the other? ( or pressure or humidity ).

Bob



> On Jun 8, 2018, at 8:05 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A ***@n1k.org
> Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
> Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi,
>
> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hi
>
> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>
> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> I suspect you will find correlations ….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Attila,
>> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
>> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>>
>> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>>
>> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
>> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
>> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
>> Regards,
>> Luciano
>>
>>
>> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
>> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
>> Cc
>> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
>> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>> Hoi zäme!
>>
>> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
>> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
>> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Attila Kinali
>>
>> --
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
>> use without that foundation.
>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> <HP5065A-B vs Z3816A.xps>_______________________________________________
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rfnuts
2018-06-08 13:46:50 UTC
Permalink
This is a 6 days run of a modified 5065'B' against GPS.

Adrian

Am 08.06.2018 um 14:05 schrieb ***@timeok.it:
> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A ***@n1k.org
> Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
> Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi,
>
> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hi
>
> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>
> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> I suspect you will find correlations 
.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Attila,
> > I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> > This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
> >
> > Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
> >
> > From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> > It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> > The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> > Regards,
> > Luciano
> >
> >
> > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> > A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> > Cc
> > Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> > Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> > Hoi zÀme!
> >
> > Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> > and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> > with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
Attila Kinali
2018-06-11 09:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Luciano,

On Fri, 8 Jun 2018 14:05:24 +0200
"***@timeok.it" <***@timeok.it> wrote:


> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.

Thanks a lot!
Unfortunately, I have no application that can read XPS files available.
Can you send it as something more standard?

Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Achim Gratz
2018-06-11 20:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Attila Kinali writes:
> Unfortunately, I have no application that can read XPS files available.
> Can you send it as something more standard?

Okular opens the file without problems. MuPDF should do the same, but I
can't test it at the moment.


Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs
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t***@timeok.it
2018-06-08 14:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
This test requires that the two Rubidiun be installed in the same cabinet so they are subject to the same temperature and atmospheric pressure.
Acquisitions were made simultaneously.To confirm the data collected, the same test was repeated in another site with two different HP5065, one modified in B or "supe" and the other unmodified.

The results were very similar, that is, both the Super version has a worse lmedium term Adev than the unmodified version.
All this suggests that the modification with the addition of the 780nm filter worsens the medium term stability of the HP5065.
Therefore I would tend to exclude that the results obtained depend on the different sensitiveness towards atmospheric pressure or to the variations of the environmental temperature.
It would be interesting that for further confirmation of what I have deduced other people could carry out the same tests in the medium and long term Adev stability.
Luciano
www.timeok.it


Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
Cc
Data Fri, 8 Jun 2018 09:02:34 -0400
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
Hi

Ok, so this question should not come as a great surprise: Does one of the 5065’s have about 3X the temperature
sensitivity of the other? ( or pressure or humidity ).

Bob



> On Jun 8, 2018, at 8:05 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A ***@n1k.org
> Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
> Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi,
>
> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hi
>
> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>
> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> I suspect you will find correlations ….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Attila,
>> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
>> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>>
>> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>>
>> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
>> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
>> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
>> Regards,
>> Luciano
>>
>>
>> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
>> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
>> Cc
>> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
>> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>> Hoi zäme!
>>
>> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
>> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
>> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Attila Kinali
>>
>> --
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
>> use without that foundation.
>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
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> <HP5065A-B vs Z3816A.xps>_______________________________________________
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Bob kb8tq
2018-06-08 14:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Having run tens of thousands of standards on these sorts of tests … the one that is more temperature / pressure sensitive *will*
show up as having worse long term stability.

1) If your environment swings +/- 1C over 48 hours.

2) If unit A is 1 ppb 0 to 50 ( = 20 ppt / C)

3) If unit B is -0.2 ppb 0 to 50C ( = -4 ppt / C)

4) Both will have degraded stability on a plot that shows 2 days of data

5) Unit A is “at spec” for the 5065, unit B is better than the rated performance. After many decades .. who knows what the spec is ….

Unit B will show up as 5X better on a long term test than unit A with both in *exactly* the same environment. Holding 1 C over 2 days
is doing well even for some ( but not all ) environmental chambers.

I’m by no means claiming that this *is* the only source of the difference. The point is that the temperature stability rating on these
devices is not very good. They are quite temperature sensitive. There are a lot of OCXO’s out there that do much better on stability
than a 5065 temperature wise.

Bob

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 10:07 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> This test requires that the two Rubidiun be installed in the same cabinet so they are subject to the same temperature and atmospheric pressure.
> Acquisitions were made simultaneously.To confirm the data collected, the same test was repeated in another site with two different HP5065, one modified in B or "supe" and the other unmodified.
>
> The results were very similar, that is, both the Super version has a worse lmedium term Adev than the unmodified version.
> All this suggests that the modification with the addition of the 780nm filter worsens the medium term stability of the HP5065.
>
> Therefore I would tend to exclude that the results obtained depend on the different sensitiveness towards atmospheric pressure or to the variations of the environmental temperature.
>
> It would be interesting that for further confirmation of what I have deduced other people could carry out the same tests in the medium and long term Adev stability.
>
> Luciano
> www.timeok.it
>
>
>
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Fri, 8 Jun 2018 09:02:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi
>
> Ok, so this question should not come as a great surprise: Does one of the 5065’s have about 3X the temperature
> sensitivity of the other? ( or pressure or humidity ).
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 2018, at 8:05 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
> >
> >
> > Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
> > Luciano
> >
> >
> > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> > A ***@n1k.org
> > Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
> > Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
> > Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> > acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
> > To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> > This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
> > Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
> > I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
> > Luciano
> >
> >
> > Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> > A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> > Cc
> > Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> > Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> > Hi
> >
> > It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> > stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> > likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
> >
> > If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> > I suspect you will find correlations ….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Attila,
> >> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> >> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
> >>
> >> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
> >>
> >> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> >> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> >> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> >> Regards,
> >> Luciano
> >>
> >>
> >> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> >> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> >> Cc
> >> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> >> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> >> Hoi zäme!
> >>
> >> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> >> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> >> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance!
> >>
> >> Attila Kinali
> >>
> >> --
> >> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> >> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> >> use without that foundation.
> >> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > <HP5065A-B vs Z3816A.xps>_______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>

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t***@timeok.it
2018-06-08 14:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Adrian,
as you know, to get real data up to 100K sec range, you should acquire at least 500K 1M sec.
I say this from my personal experience. Soon I will have my 30 days run for both the A and B version of the HP5065.
Very interesting the response of the GPSDO in the range 1 to 100 sec that I had never had the chance to see for lack of an instrument as your A7.
ciao,
Luciano


Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
A time-***@febo.com
Cc
Data Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:46:50 +0200
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
This is a 6 days run of a modified 5065'B' against GPS.

Adrian

Am 08.06.2018 um 14:05 schrieb ***@timeok.it:
> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A ***@n1k.org
> Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
> Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>
> Hi,
>
> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> Hi
>
> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>
> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
> I suspect you will find correlations ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Attila,
> > I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
> > This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
> >
> > Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
> >
> > From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
> > It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
> > The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
> > Regards,
> > Luciano
> >
> >
> > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> > A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
> > Cc
> > Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
> > Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> > Hoi zäme!
> >
> > Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
> > and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
> > with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Bob kb8tq
2018-06-08 15:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi

With ADEV, you really need something closer to 100X your tau to get accurate data. The utter impossibility of doing this
for long Tau is what has driven the development of other evaluation methods.

Bob

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 10:36 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>
>
> Hi Adrian,
> as you know, to get real data up to 100K sec range, you should acquire at least 500K 1M sec.
> I say this from my personal experience. Soon I will have my 30 days run for both the A and B version of the HP5065.
> Very interesting the response of the GPSDO in the range 1 to 100 sec that I had never had the chance to see for lack of an instrument as your A7.
> ciao,
> Luciano
>
>
> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
> A time-***@febo.com
> Cc
> Data Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:46:50 +0200
> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
> This is a 6 days run of a modified 5065'B' against GPS.
>
> Adrian
>
> Am 08.06.2018 um 14:05 schrieb ***@timeok.it:
>> Here a ten days simultaneously run of the A and B version compared with my HP Z3816A GPSDO.
>> Luciano
>>
>>
>> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
>> A ***@n1k.org
>> Cc "time-nuts" time-***@febo.com
>> Data Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:18:27 +0200
>> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> certainly the environmental effects are significant and it is precisely for this reason that
>> acquisitions have been made simultaneously on two 5065, one modified and the other not.
>> To verify the results the same measures were taken with another pair of 5065, one modified and the other not.
>> This second test was carried out at another site 300Km from the first one.
>> Both tests showed a better and more consistent medium/long term ADEV than the unmodified HP5065A.
>> I want to clarify that these measures have the objective of verifying the medium / long term stability and not the short term stability of the Super version I agree it is improved..
>> Luciano
>>
>>
>> Da "Bob kb8tq" ***@n1k.org
>> A "Luciano Paramithiotti" ***@timeok.it,"Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
>> Cc
>> Data Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:05:34 -0400
>> Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>> Hi
>>
>> It is pretty well known that without “help” ( beyond the filter stuff on the super) the 5065 has fairly poor temperature
>> stability and somewhat variable response to pressure and humidity. Taking two samples right off the production line
>> likely would have given you different long term data as a result.
>>
>> If you are going to the trouble of watching these devices for a long time, monitor temperature, pressure and humidity.
>> I suspect you will find correlations ….
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Jun 5, 2018, at 5:44 AM, ***@timeok.it wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Attila,
>>> I am doing the long therm stability test on a couple of HP5065, one original A type, the second B or "super" compared with my best long therm stability, a GPSDO HPz3816A.
>>> This test will be 30 days long. It is a second test, with a second couple of HP5065A/B, to verify the long therm stability of both the version.
>>>
>>> Up to now the data available for version B or "super" only concerned the improvement of phase noise.
>>>
>>> From the first results it seems that the HP5065A is more stable within 30days than the modified version with the filter.
>>> It must be considered that the short-term stability of 5065 is better than the GPSDO / TICC up to 10-80k sec then, in this test configuration the valid data will be beyond these values.
>>> The results will be ready within 28 days and I will be happy to share them in order to have everyone's opinion.
>>> Regards,
>>> Luciano
>>>
>>>
>>> Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-***@febo.com
>>> A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-***@febo.com
>>> Cc
>>> Data Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:11:50 +0200
>>> Oggetto [time-nuts] Raw phase data of super-5065
>>> Hoi zäme!
>>>
>>> Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
>>> and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
>>> with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> Attila Kinali
>>>
>>> --
>>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
>>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
>>> use without that foundation.
>>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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c***@juno.com
2018-06-13 15:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Saw the plot in the June 12 post.

Pretty much limited by the 3816 up to 10K Seconds.

Would be interesting to see a long plot of the two 5065 against each
other!

Cheers,

Corby

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Attila Kinali
2018-06-14 08:54:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:19:58 -0700
<***@juno.com> wrote:

> Would be interesting to see a long plot of the two 5065 against each
> other!

I had a look at Luciano's data and it's probably safe to say, that
the instability of the super-5065 would be the limit. The unmodified
5065 is incredibly stable (once you remove drift).

Attached are the two phase plots, both with quadratic drift removed.
The unmodified 5065A has a kind of weird ~18day undulation. I would
say it's an environmental effect, but the two cycles are too similar,
so I do not know what to think of it.

The super-5065 (5065B) has quite a few bigger frequency jumps, with
pretty stable phases in-between. My guess here would be that there
are no environmental effects and it is limited by instabilities in
the frequency discriminator electronics, ie offsets that show (close to)
discrete jumps. or that the lamp brightness changes.

Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
Bob kb8tq
2018-06-14 13:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I’d say both have a “something” with a period of roughly 18 to 20 hours in their
data runs.

Bob

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:54 AM, Attila Kinali <***@kinali.ch> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:19:58 -0700
> <***@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> Would be interesting to see a long plot of the two 5065 against each
>> other!
>
> I had a look at Luciano's data and it's probably safe to say, that
> the instability of the super-5065 would be the limit. The unmodified
> 5065 is incredibly stable (once you remove drift).
>
> Attached are the two phase plots, both with quadratic drift removed.
> The unmodified 5065A has a kind of weird ~18day undulation. I would
> say it's an environmental effect, but the two cycles are too similar,
> so I do not know what to think of it.
>
> The super-5065 (5065B) has quite a few bigger frequency jumps, with
> pretty stable phases in-between. My guess here would be that there
> are no environmental effects and it is limited by instabilities in
> the frequency discriminator electronics, ie offsets that show (close to)
> discrete jumps. or that the lamp brightness changes.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> <HP5065Anr2 vs Z3816A 30days.png><HP5065Bnr1 vs Z3816A 30days.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
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Magnus Danielson
2018-06-14 13:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

All I have seen so far is an ADEV plot, and that is not a good tool to
estimate such systematics in. I would like to see the phase & frequency
data, it would probably be better for this type of diagnostics.

Do we have the raw measurements in a readable format?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 06/14/2018 03:06 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> I’d say both have a “something” with a period of roughly 18 to 20 hours in their
> data runs.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:54 AM, Attila Kinali <***@kinali.ch> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:19:58 -0700
>> <***@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Would be interesting to see a long plot of the two 5065 against each
>>> other!
>>
>> I had a look at Luciano's data and it's probably safe to say, that
>> the instability of the super-5065 would be the limit. The unmodified
>> 5065 is incredibly stable (once you remove drift).
>>
>> Attached are the two phase plots, both with quadratic drift removed.
>> The unmodified 5065A has a kind of weird ~18day undulation. I would
>> say it's an environmental effect, but the two cycles are too similar,
>> so I do not know what to think of it.
>>
>> The super-5065 (5065B) has quite a few bigger frequency jumps, with
>> pretty stable phases in-between. My guess here would be that there
>> are no environmental effects and it is limited by instabilities in
>> the frequency discriminator electronics, ie offsets that show (close to)
>> discrete jumps. or that the lamp brightness changes.
>>
>> Attila Kinali
>>
>> --
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
>> use without that foundation.
>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> <HP5065Anr2 vs Z3816A 30days.png><HP5065Bnr1 vs Z3816A 30days.png>_______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Attila Kinali
2018-06-14 17:49:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:14:55 +0200
Magnus Danielson <***@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Do we have the raw measurements in a readable format?

Yes, you can find them at
http://time.kinali.ch/phase_data/luciano/

Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Ralph Devoe
2018-06-15 15:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
This is not a Super-5065, but it might be interesting. Its a 12 day
measurement of a stock 5065a against a 5071a cesium standard. There are 10K
points at 100 second intervals. It passes through 10(-13) at about the 6000
second mark and settles in at 5-7 x10(-14) at longer times.
I think this is a lucky measurement, in that during this period our
weather was very stable (as it often is in Northern California during the
summer). The barometric pressure at the local airport only varied by +/- 4
mbar during the twelve days. If you use Corby's value of 1.4 x 10(-14) per
mbar from May, 2016 then this seems reasonable. The temperature is also
very stable in Leo Holberg's very quiet lab at Stanford. We're setting up
to log pressure and temperature.
The other unusual thing about this 5065a is that its aging rate is
very low, way below 10(-12) per month. I've been tracking it since Jan
2018 and I can't yet get a good number. Its an old unit, made in 1975, and
appears to have been turned off for many years. The diode board is just
slightly singed, not brown at all. Its been turned on continuously for the
last two years.
This was measured with a sine-wave fitter, but any method should
give the same results, given the long times. I've also been comparing my
other "newer" 5065a against the 5071a and it shows the usual warmup drift
and has a standard aging rate.

Ralph
Bob kb8tq
2018-06-15 15:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I would not find it at all surprising that any of the older Rb’s are running below
1x10^-11 / month these days ( after a good run-in). Below 1x10^-12 is pretty amazing.
The FRK’s will normally hang out a bit above that point. Indeed, getting all of the pressure
and temperature stuff stable enough to see the aging is a bit of a challenge. The only
hope for most of us is “it’ll all average out …”.

Bob

> On Jun 15, 2018, at 11:25 AM, Ralph Devoe <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> This is not a Super-5065, but it might be interesting. Its a 12 day
> measurement of a stock 5065a against a 5071a cesium standard. There are 10K
> points at 100 second intervals. It passes through 10(-13) at about the 6000
> second mark and settles in at 5-7 x10(-14) at longer times.
> I think this is a lucky measurement, in that during this period our
> weather was very stable (as it often is in Northern California during the
> summer). The barometric pressure at the local airport only varied by +/- 4
> mbar during the twelve days. If you use Corby's value of 1.4 x 10(-14) per
> mbar from May, 2016 then this seems reasonable. The temperature is also
> very stable in Leo Holberg's very quiet lab at Stanford. We're setting up
> to log pressure and temperature.
> The other unusual thing about this 5065a is that its aging rate is
> very low, way below 10(-12) per month. I've been tracking it since Jan
> 2018 and I can't yet get a good number. Its an old unit, made in 1975, and
> appears to have been turned off for many years. The diode board is just
> slightly singed, not brown at all. Its been turned on continuously for the
> last two years.
> This was measured with a sine-wave fitter, but any method should
> give the same results, given the long times. I've also been comparing my
> other "newer" 5065a against the 5071a and it shows the usual warmup drift
> and has a standard aging rate.
>
> Ralph
> <060118_01.jpg>_______________________________________________
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> and follow the instructions there.

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Tom Van Baak
2018-06-15 16:13:33 UTC
Permalink
From 2002, 5 million samples, 5065A vs. 5071A, drift rate 2e-12 per month:

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/doug-rb/

/tvb

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