Discussion:
TS2100 OCXO Conversion: Command exploration
(too old to reply)
Bruce Lane
2018-04-07 18:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Fellow Time-Tickers,

I'm still experimenting with conversion of the TS2100 from standard TTL
oscillator to OCXO. More specifically, the OCXO I'm trying is made by
the now-defunct Piezo Crystal Company, Carlyle, PA. It's their model
2900082-47, and from what little I've been able to discover, it seems to
match the large 'U56' pattern in the 2100. It is said to be a direct
replacement for the Trimble-branded 37266, so I'm hoping its EFC voltage
is in the 0-5V range.

I've made much progress in deciphering the menu structure of the 'root
eng' section, thanks to past posts from Greg Dowd and others. Permit me
to explain, for the benefit of those who may be having trouble making
the 'intuitive leap,' as it were. Please note, everything I'm describing
here is done with a hardware RS232 connection directly to the unit, on
P4 - Serial port B. Comm parameters used were 9600-8-N-1, no flow control.

Symmetricom, apparently, used single words as commands. Anything
following the first word in a command list, unless clearly called out by
an underscore (as in the command 'eeprom_select') is merely descriptive
commentary for the command itself.

Here's some examples. We'll start with the command 'root' (minus the
quotes, of course). If you type 'root' and simply hit enter, nothing
appears to happen. However, if you type 'root ?' and hit enter, you get
this:

Commands
--------------------------------
network /
timing /
serial /
utility /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

This is indeed the visible 'root' level of the command directory. Note
the valuable (to techies) 'root eng' is hidden. Type that command, add a
question mark at the end, hit enter, and you get this:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
start net interface
timing tools /
serial tools /
eeprom tools /
spi tools /
flash tools /
display tools /
memory tools /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Type 'root eng eeprom ?' and hit enter, and you get:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
ethernet address
board serial number
gain default
filter constant
low filter constant
precision
set eeprom
get eeprom
read serial eeprom
write serial eeprom
tx 16 bits to eeprom
location for image
info value
eeprom_select
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Do you see the pattern? The first word, and only the first word, is the
command and whatever you type after that is what value you want entered
as part of the command. The question mark shows a list of commands
available under whatever section you're in.

Example: Type 'root eng eeprom gain' and the far left column will show
you what the current gain setting is. Type something like 'root eng
eeprom gain -20' and your gain will be set to -20 and the value stored
in the EEPROM.

Now, here's the fun part. Remember how I'd originally asked about
changing the D/A value, and I couldn't seem to get the syntax right? As
I recall, other list members have had similar issues.

Check this out: Type 'root timing utils ?' and hit enter. You get:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
tfp data
jam sync
force jam
phase on
adjust time
generator offset
gain adjust
filter constant
low filter constant
diff value
d/a load
leap second utc
reference time
cmp delay
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Now, try this one: 'root timing utils d/a' and hit enter. Here's what I
gor:

D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x178

Next, I tried: 'root timing utils d/a 0x180' and hit enter. Lo and
behold, when I queried the value again, I got:

D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x180

So -- That's how to set the D/A constant in the beastie!

Now, with all this said: I'm still waiting for a 'Lock' indicator on
the front. It's tracking, and the D/A value certainly has changed from
what I had it at last night, but I'm still not getting a lock. Here are
my current numbers:

root timing utils tfp 0 -- returned 0x00f2
root timing utils tfp 6 -- returned KM = 0.9994965
root timing utils tfp 7 -- returned KO = 0.9994965
root timing utils gain -- returned gain now:20 (There seems to be a
difference of opinion as to whether -20 or 20 should be used. At this
point, I'm tempted to just set it to zero and see what happens).

root eng eeprom info -- returned 00000024

Any thoughts on why I don't have a lock as yet?

And -- I hope this helps out others. Thanks much!
--
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Philip Jackson
2018-04-07 20:08:10 UTC
Permalink
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Bruce

Thanks for posting your research.

Re. the Lock question.

It's been a while since I last played with a TS2100 given the roll over issue, but IIRC the "lock" LED is an indication that you
have more than a specified number of satellites (four sounds familiar) with a signal reading above a certain threshold. I don't
think it means oscillator discipline lock.

So if you haven't changed any of the masks that are used to interpret the data coming off the GPS card then I would investigate the
quality of your signal into the receiver.

There's a GPS menu under the TIMING menu that will give you a readout of signal strengths.

What antenna are you using and how long and what type of cable is the downlead? Does the antenna have a complete view of the sky?
The default masks assume a low angle of acceptance I believe.

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-***@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lane
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2018 2:46 PM
To: TimeNuts
Subject: [time-nuts] TS2100 OCXO Conversion: Command exploration

Fellow Time-Tickers,

I'm still experimenting with conversion of the TS2100 from standard TTL
oscillator to OCXO. More specifically, the OCXO I'm trying is made by
the now-defunct Piezo Crystal Company, Carlyle, PA. It's their model
2900082-47, and from what little I've been able to discover, it seems to
match the large 'U56' pattern in the 2100. It is said to be a direct
replacement for the Trimble-branded 37266, so I'm hoping its EFC voltage
is in the 0-5V range.

I've made much progress in deciphering the menu structure of the 'root
eng' section, thanks to past posts from Greg Dowd and others. Permit me
to explain, for the benefit of those who may be having trouble making
the 'intuitive leap,' as it were. Please note, everything I'm describing
here is done with a hardware RS232 connection directly to the unit, on
P4 - Serial port B. Comm parameters used were 9600-8-N-1, no flow control.

Symmetricom, apparently, used single words as commands. Anything
following the first word in a command list, unless clearly called out by
an underscore (as in the command 'eeprom_select') is merely descriptive
commentary for the command itself.

Here's some examples. We'll start with the command 'root' (minus the
quotes, of course). If you type 'root' and simply hit enter, nothing
appears to happen. However, if you type 'root ?' and hit enter, you get
this:

Commands
--------------------------------
network /
timing /
serial /
utility /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

This is indeed the visible 'root' level of the command directory. Note
the valuable (to techies) 'root eng' is hidden. Type that command, add a
question mark at the end, hit enter, and you get this:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
start net interface
timing tools /
serial tools /
eeprom tools /
spi tools /
flash tools /
display tools /
memory tools /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Type 'root eng eeprom ?' and hit enter, and you get:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
ethernet address
board serial number
gain default
filter constant
low filter constant
precision
set eeprom
get eeprom
read serial eeprom
write serial eeprom
tx 16 bits to eeprom
location for image
info value
eeprom_select
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Do you see the pattern? The first word, and only the first word, is the
command and whatever you type after that is what value you want entered
as part of the command. The question mark shows a list of commands
available under whatever section you're in.

Example: Type 'root eng eeprom gain' and the far left column will show
you what the current gain setting is. Type something like 'root eng
eeprom gain -20' and your gain will be set to -20 and the value stored
in the EEPROM.

Now, here's the fun part. Remember how I'd originally asked about
changing the D/A value, and I couldn't seem to get the syntax right? As
I recall, other list members have had similar issues.

Check this out: Type 'root timing utils ?' and hit enter. You get:

--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
tfp data
jam sync
force jam
phase on
adjust time
generator offset
gain adjust
filter constant
low filter constant
diff value
d/a load
leap second utc
reference time
cmp delay
intrinsic help
--------------------------------

Now, try this one: 'root timing utils d/a' and hit enter. Here's what I
gor:

D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x178

Next, I tried: 'root timing utils d/a 0x180' and hit enter. Lo and
behold, when I queried the value again, I got:

D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x180

So -- That's how to set the D/A constant in the beastie!

Now, with all this said: I'm still waiting for a 'Lock' indicator on
the front. It's tracking, and the D/A value certainly has changed from
what I had it at last night, but I'm still not getting a lock. Here are
my current numbers:

root timing utils tfp 0 -- returned 0x00f2
root timing utils tfp 6 -- returned KM = 0.9994965
root timing utils tfp 7 -- returned KO = 0.9994965
root timing utils gain -- returned gain now:20 (There seems to be a
difference of opinion as to whether -20 or 20 should be used. At this
point, I'm tempted to just set it to zero and see what happens).

root eng eeprom info -- returned 00000024

Any thoughts on why I don't have a lock as yet?

And -- I hope this helps out others. Thanks much!
--
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Esa Heikkinen
2018-04-07 23:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Philip Jackson
It's been a while since I last played with a TS2100 given the roll over issue, but IIRC the "lock" LED is an indication that you
have more than a specified number of satellites (four sounds familiar) with a signal reading above a certain threshold. I don't
think it means oscillator discipline lock.
No, TRACKING indicator is for that and LOCK indicator means that PPS is
within 1 microsecond of UTC.
--
73s!
Esa
OH4KJU
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Bob kb8tq
2018-04-07 21:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi

Piezo was in Carlisle rather than Carlyle PA. It was absorbed into the Corning / Oak
empire almost 20 years ago. Corning / Oak amalgamated with Vectron a bit over ten
years ago.

Piezo was the original OCXO supplier on the TBolt boards. If it is a TBolt part, just like
the later OCXO’s it will have a pretty large EFC range. That may or may not make the
TS2100 happy.

Bob
Post by Bruce Lane
Fellow Time-Tickers,
I'm still experimenting with conversion of the TS2100 from standard TTL
oscillator to OCXO. More specifically, the OCXO I'm trying is made by
the now-defunct Piezo Crystal Company, Carlyle, PA. It's their model
2900082-47, and from what little I've been able to discover, it seems to
match the large 'U56' pattern in the 2100. It is said to be a direct
replacement for the Trimble-branded 37266, so I'm hoping its EFC voltage
is in the 0-5V range.
I've made much progress in deciphering the menu structure of the 'root
eng' section, thanks to past posts from Greg Dowd and others. Permit me
to explain, for the benefit of those who may be having trouble making
the 'intuitive leap,' as it were. Please note, everything I'm describing
here is done with a hardware RS232 connection directly to the unit, on
P4 - Serial port B. Comm parameters used were 9600-8-N-1, no flow control.
Symmetricom, apparently, used single words as commands. Anything
following the first word in a command list, unless clearly called out by
an underscore (as in the command 'eeprom_select') is merely descriptive
commentary for the command itself.
Here's some examples. We'll start with the command 'root' (minus the
quotes, of course). If you type 'root' and simply hit enter, nothing
appears to happen. However, if you type 'root ?' and hit enter, you get
Commands
--------------------------------
network /
timing /
serial /
utility /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------
This is indeed the visible 'root' level of the command directory. Note
the valuable (to techies) 'root eng' is hidden. Type that command, add a
--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
start net interface
timing tools /
serial tools /
eeprom tools /
spi tools /
flash tools /
display tools /
memory tools /
intrinsic help
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
ethernet address
board serial number
gain default
filter constant
low filter constant
precision
set eeprom
get eeprom
read serial eeprom
write serial eeprom
tx 16 bits to eeprom
location for image
info value
eeprom_select
intrinsic help
--------------------------------
Do you see the pattern? The first word, and only the first word, is the
command and whatever you type after that is what value you want entered
as part of the command. The question mark shows a list of commands
available under whatever section you're in.
Example: Type 'root eng eeprom gain' and the far left column will show
you what the current gain setting is. Type something like 'root eng
eeprom gain -20' and your gain will be set to -20 and the value stored
in the EEPROM.
Now, here's the fun part. Remember how I'd originally asked about
changing the D/A value, and I couldn't seem to get the syntax right? As
I recall, other list members have had similar issues.
--------------------------------
Commands
--------------------------------
tfp data
jam sync
force jam
phase on
adjust time
generator offset
gain adjust
filter constant
low filter constant
diff value
d/a load
leap second utc
reference time
cmp delay
intrinsic help
--------------------------------
Now, try this one: 'root timing utils d/a' and hit enter. Here's what I
D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x178
Next, I tried: 'root timing utils d/a 0x180' and hit enter. Lo and
D/A value (0x0000 - 0xffff) now:0x180
So -- That's how to set the D/A constant in the beastie!
Now, with all this said: I'm still waiting for a 'Lock' indicator on
the front. It's tracking, and the D/A value certainly has changed from
what I had it at last night, but I'm still not getting a lock. Here are
root timing utils tfp 0 -- returned 0x00f2
root timing utils tfp 6 -- returned KM = 0.9994965
root timing utils tfp 7 -- returned KO = 0.9994965
root timing utils gain -- returned gain now:20 (There seems to be a
difference of opinion as to whether -20 or 20 should be used. At this
point, I'm tempted to just set it to zero and see what happens).
root eng eeprom info -- returned 00000024
Any thoughts on why I don't have a lock as yet?
And -- I hope this helps out others. Thanks much!
--
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Esa Heikkinen
2018-04-07 23:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi!

I have TS2100 which I modified from TCXO to OCXO. I have the 'offical'
MTI OCXO, which I bought from someone on this board. I have also
replaced the GPS unit to the HEOL Design model, which was required to
get correct time at all. It's also much more accurate than the original
Trimble.
Post by Bruce Lane
Now, with all this said: I'm still waiting for a 'Lock' indicator on
the front. It's tracking, and the D/A value certainly has changed from
what I had it at last night, but I'm still not getting a lock. Here are
If I turn off the unit and the OCXO is totally cooled down then it might
need even 2-3 hours before getting the LOCK indicator on again! So
please be patient.

According to my measurements the LOCK indicator will turn on when the
PPS has gone within 1 microsecond of UTC. But it's not fully locked
even at this point! With HEOL Design GPS unit it will end up within 50
nanoseconds of UTC, but that requires even more time.

If you have trouble with locking you should compare the PPS with
oscilloscope with some other receiver (for example Thunderbolt) or maybe
you could 'steal' the PPS from the internal GPS and compare it with
output. You should see it trying to reach the correct PPS and if it
passes it at startup, it should change the direction and finally settle
near the PPS input. In case of trouble you could also try with different
A/D values manually and see what they do.
Post by Bruce Lane
root timing utils tfp 0 -- returned 0x00f2
That cannot be correct: Value is too low, near zero volts perhaps and it
might be clipped. Looks like it has drived itself to the lower limit
without getting correct feedback. This is a clear sign that clock
steering is not working at all.

From my unit:
1 ? tim
2 ? utils
3 ? tfp 0
0xb676
Post by Bruce Lane
root timing utils tfp 6 -- returned KM = 0.9994965
4 ? tfp 6
KM = 0.9994965
Post by Bruce Lane
root timing utils tfp 7 -- returned KO = 0.9994965
5 ? tfp 7
KO = 0.9994965
Post by Bruce Lane
root timing utils gain -- returned gain now:20 (There seems to be a
6 ? gain
gain now:-20
Post by Bruce Lane
root eng eeprom info -- returned 00000024
Same here. Please note that to enable any eeprom writes you must close
JP4 temporary.

By the way: you don't need to start every command with 'root'. It just
resets the menu structure back start every time, which sounds
impractical. You gan enter the menus, type '?' to see the available
commands and go back to previous menu level with 'pop' command.
Post by Bruce Lane
Any thoughts on why I don't have a lock as yet?
According to A/D value it looks like clock steering is not working at
all. You should use oscilloscope to find out if A/D values have any
effect at all.

If you have rubidium or other kind of 10 MHz source put it to one trace
of oscilloscope and TS2100 10 MHz output to another. Then try with
different A/D values manually and see if it's even possible to get waves
syncronized. If it's not possible with any A/D value then it will never
lock, perhaps your OCXO is not compatible.
--
73s!
Esa
OH4KJU
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Bruce Lane
2018-04-09 00:14:01 UTC
Permalink
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And, as of today, I still can't get it to lock. :-P

I think I'm going to have to conclude, reluctantly, that the full-size
OCXO's are simply not compatible with this unit. It strikes me as
possible there may be other hardware changes needed to run such. It's
just impossible to tell for certain without some kind of schematic.

So -- Reverse conversion, here we go. Looks like I'll just have to
settle for a square wave until I can find a couple of MTI 240's....

Thanks to all who rendered assistance.
Post by Esa Heikkinen
Hi!
I have TS2100 which I modified from TCXO to OCXO. I have the 'offical'
MTI OCXO, which I bought from someone on this board. I have also
replaced the GPS unit to the HEOL Design model, which was required to
get correct time at all. It's also much more accurate than the original
Trimble.
    Now, with all this said: I'm still waiting for a 'Lock' indicator on
the front. It's tracking, and the D/A value certainly has changed from
what I had it at last night, but I'm still not getting a lock. Here are
If I turn off the unit and the OCXO is totally cooled down then it might
need even 2-3 hours before getting the LOCK indicator on again! So
please be patient.
According to my measurements the LOCK indicator will turn on when the
PPS has gone within 1  microsecond of UTC. But it's not fully locked
even at this point! With HEOL Design GPS unit it will end up within 50
nanoseconds of UTC, but that requires even more time.
If you have trouble with locking you should compare the PPS with
oscilloscope with some other receiver (for example Thunderbolt) or maybe
you could 'steal' the PPS from the internal GPS and compare it with
output. You should see it trying to reach the correct PPS and if it
passes it at startup, it should change the direction and finally settle
near the PPS input. In case of trouble you could also try with different
A/D values manually and see what they do.
root timing utils tfp 0 -- returned 0x00f2
That cannot be correct: Value is too low, near zero volts perhaps and it
might be clipped. Looks like it has drived itself to the lower limit
without getting correct feedback. This is a clear sign that clock
steering is not working at all.
1 ? tim
2 ? utils
3 ? tfp 0
0xb676
root timing utils tfp 6 -- returned KM = 0.9994965
4 ? tfp 6
KM = 0.9994965
root timing utils tfp 7 -- returned KO = 0.9994965
5 ? tfp 7
KO = 0.9994965
root timing utils gain -- returned gain now:20 (There seems to be a
6 ? gain
gain now:-20
root eng eeprom info -- returned 00000024
Same here. Please note that to enable any eeprom writes you must close
JP4 temporary.
By the way: you don't need to start every command with 'root'. It just
resets the menu structure back start every time, which sounds
impractical. You gan enter the menus, type '?' to see the available
commands and go back to previous menu level with 'pop' command.
    Any thoughts on why I don't have a lock as yet?
According to A/D value it looks like clock steering is not working at
all. You should use oscilloscope to find out if A/D values have any
effect at all.
If you have rubidium or other kind of 10 MHz source put it to one trace
of oscilloscope and TS2100 10 MHz output to another. Then try with
different A/D values manually and see if it's even possible to get waves
syncronized. If it's not possible with any A/D value then it will never
lock, perhaps your OCXO is not compatible.
--
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-***@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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