Discussion:
Is possible precise 1pps?
h***@public.gmane.org
2013-03-13 13:03:33 UTC
Permalink
I have GPS without  "position hold", I wonder how precise 1PPS, which I want
to use for disciplined OCXO.
You do not know how GPS with "position hold" calculates the measured
coordinates vs know the real coordinates of the expected error timestamps 1
pps?


Thansk for information
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an
Bob Camp
2013-03-13 14:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi

A GPS that uses position hold gets it's coordinates from one of two possible
sources:

1) You measure the actual antenna location with a precision survey grade GPS
and enter them.

--or--

2) The GPS does a survey for some amount of time. It averages it's own
"reasonable" location estimates over this time period. With 48 hour
averaging and a good sky view the location estimate can be pretty good.

The position hold function allows the GPS to come up with a time estimate
from a small number of satellites. This is useful when the sky view is not
very good.

A position error of one meter can translate into a time error of about 3 ns.
Most GPS engines are rated for a 3 meter error, so that would be roughly 9
or 10 ns. Since the exact error depends on the stat's location relative to
the error vector, the actual error will vary a bit (= it looks like noise).

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of hutta.j-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:04 AM
To: time-nuts-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [time-nuts] Is possible precise 1pps?

I have GPS without  "position hold", I wonder how precise 1PPS, which I want
to use for disciplined OCXO.
You do not know how GPS with "position hold" calculates the measured
coordinates vs know the real coordinates of the expected error timestamps 1
pps?


Thansk for information
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Jim Lux
2013-03-13 14:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Camp
Hi
A GPS that uses position hold gets it's coordinates from one of two possible
1) You measure the actual antenna location with a precision survey grade GPS
and enter them.
--or--
2) The GPS does a survey for some amount of time. It averages it's own
"reasonable" location estimates over this time period. With 48 hour
averaging and a good sky view the location estimate can be pretty good.
The position hold function allows the GPS to come up with a time estimate
from a small number of satellites. This is useful when the sky view is not
very good.
A position error of one meter can translate into a time error of about 3 ns.
Most GPS engines are rated for a 3 meter error, so that would be roughly 9
or 10 ns. Since the exact error depends on the stat's location relative to
the error vector, the actual error will vary a bit (= it looks like noise).
I was just reminded of an interesting observation..

The satellites are all moving, so whether your receiver is moving or not
doesn't really change the inherent time accuracy possible, as long as
you can accurately (!) estimate your position. Otherwise, the time
uncertainty is some combination of the position uncertainty of the
satellites and your own position uncertainty. i.e. there's no reason why
you can't determine the position of a LEO satellite to centimeters, even
though it's zipping along at 7km/sec. In fact it's potentially easier
than on the earth's surface: less ionosphere, less multipath, less high
frequency variation in position and velocity vectors.

What position hold really buys you is a reduction in "own position
uncertainty" and the ability to use fewer satellites to get a "time fix".

Think of it as solving for 4 unknowns (x,y,z,t) (i.e. your position and
time). And, as a practical matter, you need to solve for their
derivatives as well. Using inputs that are the (multiple) satellites'
(x,y,z,t and derivatives). Position hold essentially says
xdot,ydot,zdot =0, so you have fewer things to solve for (t and tdot).
Fewer things to solve for with the same number of observables means,
hopefully, smaller uncertainty on the resulting solution.


There's also a basic issue with some receivers... if they were intended
for an application that didn't need precise timing (e.g. they just time
stamp things to the nearest millisecond or something), then the internal
receiver architecture and software may not bother to actually try to
solve for time to a higher level of precision. Maybe 1 microsecond is
"good enough" to produce position and time outputs with the required
accuracy. I recall seeing a patent (or maybe a paper) for a low
precision attitude determination system (1 or 0.1 degree, as I recall)
and it didn't need very good time or position accuracy at all.. what it
needed to know was the "direction of arrival" of the GPS signal, so they
could compare carrier phase between two antennas. And they didn't need
precise measurement of carrier frequency either. To a first order, to
get 1 degree knowledge, you need to know your position to within 1/57th
of the distance to the satellite, or some hundreds of km. That's pretty
crummy in GPS terms, but it works. I don't recall if that system even
solved for own position, or if it used an estimate from somwhere else,
or whether it just acquired and tracked the carrier and PN code, without
doing a nav solution.
Azelio Boriani
2013-03-13 17:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Hutta,
to sum up for you: as you have read, position hold doesn't mean precise
PPS, only the ability to determine the PPS (the time) with less than 4
satellites, downto only one. Timing grade receivers have better internal
oscillators and give better PPS always, either in position hold or not.
Best to use a timing grade receiver but to move the first step towards the
OCXO disciplining, a navigation receiver will do. Then you will start to
appreciate things that will lead you to a timing receiver with the sawtooth
correction. I say this because I have travelled this way over the years.
Post by Jim Lux
Post by Bob Camp
Hi
A GPS that uses position hold gets it's coordinates from one of two possible
1) You measure the actual antenna location with a precision survey grade GPS
and enter them.
--or--
2) The GPS does a survey for some amount of time. It averages it's own
"reasonable" location estimates over this time period. With 48 hour
averaging and a good sky view the location estimate can be pretty good.
The position hold function allows the GPS to come up with a time estimate
from a small number of satellites. This is useful when the sky view is not
very good.
A position error of one meter can translate into a time error of about 3 ns.
Most GPS engines are rated for a 3 meter error, so that would be roughly 9
or 10 ns. Since the exact error depends on the stat's location relative to
the error vector, the actual error will vary a bit (= it looks like noise).
I was just reminded of an interesting observation..
The satellites are all moving, so whether your receiver is moving or not
doesn't really change the inherent time accuracy possible, as long as you
can accurately (!) estimate your position. Otherwise, the time uncertainty
is some combination of the position uncertainty of the satellites and your
own position uncertainty. i.e. there's no reason why you can't determine
the position of a LEO satellite to centimeters, even though it's zipping
along at 7km/sec. In fact it's potentially easier than on the earth's
surface: less ionosphere, less multipath, less high frequency variation in
position and velocity vectors.
What position hold really buys you is a reduction in "own position
uncertainty" and the ability to use fewer satellites to get a "time fix".
Think of it as solving for 4 unknowns (x,y,z,t) (i.e. your position and
time). And, as a practical matter, you need to solve for their derivatives
as well. Using inputs that are the (multiple) satellites' (x,y,z,t and
derivatives). Position hold essentially says xdot,ydot,zdot =0, so you
have fewer things to solve for (t and tdot). Fewer things to solve for with
the same number of observables means, hopefully, smaller uncertainty on the
resulting solution.
There's also a basic issue with some receivers... if they were intended
for an application that didn't need precise timing (e.g. they just time
stamp things to the nearest millisecond or something), then the internal
receiver architecture and software may not bother to actually try to solve
for time to a higher level of precision. Maybe 1 microsecond is "good
enough" to produce position and time outputs with the required accuracy. I
recall seeing a patent (or maybe a paper) for a low precision attitude
determination system (1 or 0.1 degree, as I recall) and it didn't need very
good time or position accuracy at all.. what it needed to know was the
"direction of arrival" of the GPS signal, so they could compare carrier
phase between two antennas. And they didn't need precise measurement of
carrier frequency either. To a first order, to get 1 degree knowledge, you
need to know your position to within 1/57th of the distance to the
satellite, or some hundreds of km. That's pretty crummy in GPS terms, but
it works. I don't recall if that system even solved for own position, or
if it used an estimate from somwhere else, or whether it just acquired and
tracked the carrier and PN code, without doing a nav solution.
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Michael Tharp
2013-03-13 18:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Azelio Boriani
Then you will start to
appreciate things that will lead you to a timing receiver with the sawtooth
correction.
For what it's worth: I have been evaluating the NEO-6M, a navigation
receiver, for use in a NTP server which I have posted here in the past.
It seems to perform quite well. It *does* have sawtooth correction,
probably because it has a timing cousin (NEO-6T), and is stable enough
to get RMS jitter to sub-10ns where the "noise floor" of my input
capture is. It does not, however, have position hold (they have to have
*some* reason to charge triple the price for a 6T) so over moderate
timescales it might wander slightly more.

Would I use 6M in a GPSDO? Probably not. But the PPS is pretty good, and
some navigation receivers *do* have sawtooth correction, which I guess
was really the point I was getting at.

-- m. tharp
Azelio Boriani
2013-03-13 22:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Good,
so we can see that position hold -> can use down to one satellite, sawtooth
correction -> we can squeeze the most out of the PPS precision, whatever
receiver (navigation/timing/other) we have. Good to know that the NEO-6M
navigation receiver has the sawtooth correction.
Post by Michael Tharp
Post by Azelio Boriani
Then you will start to
appreciate things that will lead you to a timing receiver with the sawtooth
correction.
For what it's worth: I have been evaluating the NEO-6M, a navigation
receiver, for use in a NTP server which I have posted here in the past. It
seems to perform quite well. It *does* have sawtooth correction, probably
because it has a timing cousin (NEO-6T), and is stable enough to get RMS
jitter to sub-10ns where the "noise floor" of my input capture is. It does
not, however, have position hold (they have to have *some* reason to charge
triple the price for a 6T) so over moderate timescales it might wander
slightly more.
Would I use 6M in a GPSDO? Probably not. But the PPS is pretty good, and
some navigation receivers *do* have sawtooth correction, which I guess was
really the point I was getting at.
-- m. tharp
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Chris Albertson
2013-03-13 17:17:30 UTC
Permalink
I have GPS without "position hold", I wonder how precise 1PPS, which I want
to use for disciplined OCXO.
THere is more difference between brands and models of GPS receivers.
Accuracy of the pPS can vary over a factor of 1000. But the good
news is that you can buy a good one for under $20 on eBay so there is
not much reason to "make do" and one that does not work well.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
David
2013-03-14 01:05:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:17:30 -0700, Chris Albertson
Post by Chris Albertson
I have GPS without "position hold", I wonder how precise 1PPS, which I want
to use for disciplined OCXO.
THere is more difference between brands and models of GPS receivers.
Accuracy of the pPS can vary over a factor of 1000. But the good
news is that you can buy a good one for under $20 on eBay so there is
not much reason to "make do" and one that does not work well.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.

The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.

I guess I need to pickup a real timing receiver or good oscillator to
run a comparison with to see what is going on.
Michael Tharp
2013-03-14 03:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.
The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.
If it's anything like the ancient Motorola receivers I purchased off
fleabay on the mistaken assumption that they were UT+, it might have a
1uS phase skip every 20s or so. In other words, after a random number of
seconds the PPS (and all subsequent PPS) will be exactly 1uS early. The
idea being that it loosely tracks UTC/GPS, but jumps whenever it gets
too far away. Totally useless for timing but at least they were cheap.
David
2013-03-14 05:02:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:07:01 -0400, Michael Tharp
Post by Michael Tharp
Post by David
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.
The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.
If it's anything like the ancient Motorola receivers I purchased off
fleabay on the mistaken assumption that they were UT+, it might have a
1uS phase skip every 20s or so. In other words, after a random number of
seconds the PPS (and all subsequent PPS) will be exactly 1uS early. The
idea being that it loosely tracks UTC/GPS, but jumps whenever it gets
too far away. Totally useless for timing but at least they were cheap.
I have watched the output pretty carefully on my repaired Racal-Dana
1992 reliably to the nanosecond and I have never seen a jump like that
and I doubt I would have missed it. At least for the Garmin 18x, the
output pulse is definitely synchronous to the basic 16 MHz internal
clock which is expected and I can see the sawtooth error change
frequency as the GPS unit's temperature changes. It actually makes a
pretty good temperature sensor.

My 1992 lacks GPIB so I can not use it for logging unfortunately and I
lack a better timebase for comparison purposes anyway. Those are on
my list of things to take care of.
Azelio Boriani
2013-03-14 10:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Usually the typical PPS out of a timing GPS receiver is like this: it
advances at, say, 6nS steps until, after 9 seconds, jumping back to restart
again its walk. I see this on a Skytraq Venus5 using a 'scope and a Z3815A
reference. At times the PPS is really steady for seconds, at times the jump
is larger. Using the 'scope persistence, the PPS covers up to 100nS around
the reference for the 24 hours.
Post by David
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:07:01 -0400, Michael Tharp
Post by Michael Tharp
Post by David
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.
The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.
If it's anything like the ancient Motorola receivers I purchased off
fleabay on the mistaken assumption that they were UT+, it might have a
1uS phase skip every 20s or so. In other words, after a random number of
seconds the PPS (and all subsequent PPS) will be exactly 1uS early. The
idea being that it loosely tracks UTC/GPS, but jumps whenever it gets
too far away. Totally useless for timing but at least they were cheap.
I have watched the output pretty carefully on my repaired Racal-Dana
1992 reliably to the nanosecond and I have never seen a jump like that
and I doubt I would have missed it. At least for the Garmin 18x, the
output pulse is definitely synchronous to the basic 16 MHz internal
clock which is expected and I can see the sawtooth error change
frequency as the GPS unit's temperature changes. It actually makes a
pretty good temperature sensor.
My 1992 lacks GPIB so I can not use it for logging unfortunately and I
lack a better timebase for comparison purposes anyway. Those are on
my list of things to take care of.
_______________________________________________
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Bob Camp
2013-03-14 11:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi

NIST did several papers looking at GPS receivers. They found all sorts of strange issues on the timing outputs. Not all of them were easy to spot unless you had an ensemble of cesiums to compare to…

Bob
Post by David
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:07:01 -0400, Michael Tharp
Post by Michael Tharp
Post by David
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.
The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.
If it's anything like the ancient Motorola receivers I purchased off
fleabay on the mistaken assumption that they were UT+, it might have a
1uS phase skip every 20s or so. In other words, after a random number of
seconds the PPS (and all subsequent PPS) will be exactly 1uS early. The
idea being that it loosely tracks UTC/GPS, but jumps whenever it gets
too far away. Totally useless for timing but at least they were cheap.
I have watched the output pretty carefully on my repaired Racal-Dana
1992 reliably to the nanosecond and I have never seen a jump like that
and I doubt I would have missed it. At least for the Garmin 18x, the
output pulse is definitely synchronous to the basic 16 MHz internal
clock which is expected and I can see the sawtooth error change
frequency as the GPS unit's temperature changes. It actually makes a
pretty good temperature sensor.
My 1992 lacks GPIB so I can not use it for logging unfortunately and I
lack a better timebase for comparison purposes anyway. Those are on
my list of things to take care of.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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h***@public.gmane.org
2013-03-14 11:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the accuracy of 1PPS, here is a small study issues

http://www2.iee.or.jp/ver2/honbu/14-magazine/log/2005/2005_08c_08.pdf



---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Bob Camp <***@rtty.us>
Datum: 14. 3. 2013
Předmět: Re: [time-nuts] Is possible precise 1pps?

"Hi

NIST did several papers looking at GPS receivers. They found all sorts of
strange issues on the timing outputs. Not all of them were easy to spot
unless you had an ensemble of cesiums to compare to…

Bob
Post by David
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:07:01 -0400, Michael Tharp
Post by Michael Tharp
Post by David
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.
The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.
If it's anything like the ancient Motorola receivers I purchased off
fleabay on the mistaken assumption that they were UT+, it might have a
1uS phase skip every 20s or so. In other words, after a random number of
seconds the PPS (and all subsequent PPS) will be exactly 1uS early. The
idea being that it loosely tracks UTC/GPS, but jumps whenever it gets
too far away. Totally useless for timing but at least they were cheap.
I have watched the output pretty carefully on my repaired Racal-Dana
1992 reliably to the nanosecond and I have never seen a jump like that
and I doubt I would have missed it. At least for the Garmin 18x, the
output pulse is definitely synchronous to the basic 16 MHz internal
clock which is expected and I can see the sawtooth error change
frequency as the GPS unit's temperature changes. It actually makes a
pretty good temperature sensor.
My 1992 lacks GPIB so I can not use it for logging unfortunately and I
lack a better timebase for comparison purposes anyway. Those are on
my list of things to take care of.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-
nuts
Post by David
and follow the instructions there.
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cfo
2013-03-15 07:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
My 1992 lacks GPIB so I can not use it for logging unfortunately and I
lack a better timebase for comparison purposes anyway. Those are on my
list of things to take care of.
'bay 370570297836 $50

CFO
David J Taylor
2013-03-14 06:57:15 UTC
Permalink
From: David
[]
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.

The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.

I guess I need to pickup a real timing receiver or good oscillator to
run a comparison with to see what is going on.
=============================

David,

I haven't looked often, or in great detail, or logged results, but my 18x
and 18x LVC seem to be very similar in its offset from the rest such as
U-blox 6M, 6T, Sure, Adafruit etc. I.e. well within 100 ns. Causal test,
others may have measured more accurately. I've not seen any 1 microsecond
steps.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor-***@public.gmane.org
Bob Camp
2013-03-14 14:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Are we talking about steps between adjacent pps outputs or the relation of
the pps output to correct GPS time? They are two very different things. I
can put out twenty pulses that are each 50 ns to fast and be 1 us off
relative to the correct time.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of David J Taylor
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:57 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is possible precise 1pps?

From: David
[]
This brings up something that I have wondered about for a while.

The Garmin GPS18x (and many other receivers) specify the PPS output as
within 1uS but does that mean it wanders around over say 12 or 24
hours within 1uS of GPS Time or does it mean something else? I can
easily see the granularity of the PPS output but that is obviously not
what the specification refers to.

I guess I need to pickup a real timing receiver or good oscillator to
run a comparison with to see what is going on.
=============================

David,

I haven't looked often, or in great detail, or logged results, but my 18x
and 18x LVC seem to be very similar in its offset from the rest such as
U-blox 6M, 6T, Sure, Adafruit etc. I.e. well within 100 ns. Causal test,
others may have measured more accurately. I've not seen any 1 microsecond
steps.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor-***@public.gmane.org

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S***@public.gmane.org
2013-03-13 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,

there can be a huge difference in performance, depending on how well the
antenna is positioned. We did a test here a little while ago to see what
happens to our uBlox receivers if they only see a sliver of the sky (the
equivalent of only about 20 minutes worth of sunshine through a window). We ran
them in mobile mode, and then switched to position-hold mode.

The results are remarkable, see the attached plots.

Most of the time these units only see and track one or two satellites. With
position hold mode (right part of the plots), they work great. Without it
(first part of the plots) they are very noisy as the work mostly from
multipath signals.

I had posted these plots here previously and was criticized for doing so,
because I did not make it clear that these plots show the actual GPS
receiver performance, and the performance has nothing to do with the GPSDO's they
are part of. Hopefully this clarifies the significance of these test
results.

bye,
Said


In a message dated 3/13/2013 07:03:16 Pacific Daylight Time, lists-***@public.gmane.org
writes:

From: time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:time-nuts-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of hutta.j-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:04 AM
To: time-nuts-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [time-nuts] Is possible precise 1pps?

I have GPS without "position hold", I wonder how precise 1PPS, which I
want
to use for disciplined OCXO.
You do not know how GPS with "position hold" calculates the measured
coordinates vs know the real coordinates of the expected error timestamps 1
pps?


Thansk for information
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
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h***@public.gmane.org
2013-03-13 22:51:53 UTC
Permalink
NEO-6M buy for less than $ 10 including shipping from China,
NEO-6T is unfortunately expensive, and frankly I do not know who sells it
for at least a little reasonable prices.
Difference between M and T
- T supports fixed position
- T has TXO
Finally, the price at T version comes inadequate
I find the possibilities to use the cheaper M module and achieve accuracy to
T.

I use MV89A OCXO,
In addition, I have derived from the 10MHz frequency 100MHz (10th harmonic)
So considering using something like http://goo.gl/LiakP(http://goo.gl/LiakP)
and thus precise 1PPS used to disciplined OCXO.

What do u think about it?
I welcome any idea, it's certainly been discussed.

Thanks
Post by Azelio Boriani
Then you will start to
appreciate things that will lead you to a timing receiver with the
sawtooth
Post by Azelio Boriani
correction.
For what it's worth: I have been evaluating the NEO-6M, a navigation
receiver, for use in a NTP server which I have posted here in the past.
It seems to perform quite well. It *does* have sawtooth correction,
probably because it has a timing cousin (NEO-6T), and is stable enough
to get RMS jitter to sub-10ns where the "noise floor" of my input
capture is. It does not, however, have position hold (they have to have
*some* reason to charge triple the price for a 6T) so over moderate
timescales it might wander slightly more.

Would I use 6M in a GPSDO? Probably not. But the PPS is pretty good, and
some navigation receivers *do* have sawtooth correction, which I guess
was really the point I was getting at.

-- m. tharp
Attila Kinali
2013-03-18 07:47:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:51:53 +0100 (CET)
Post by h***@public.gmane.org
NEO-6M buy for less than $ 10 including shipping from China,
NEO-6T is unfortunately expensive, and frankly I do not know who sells it
for at least a little reasonable prices.
The -T models are not that expensive. The problem is that you have to
buy them in batches >30 to get down to a reasonable price. U-blox seems
to have taken the stance, that small buyers are not really benefitial to
their business (which is understandable when you can sell millions of
pieces on the chinese market). But they nevertheless support these small
buyers trough their webshop where you can buy single pieces (which is far
better than most manufacturers who do not sell single pieces at all).

Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
Pieter ten Pierick
2013-03-18 08:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Attila Kinali
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:51:53 +0100 (CET)
Post by h***@public.gmane.org
NEO-6M buy for less than $ 10 including shipping from China,
NEO-6T is unfortunately expensive, and frankly I do not know who sells it
for at least a little reasonable prices.
The -T models are not that expensive. The problem is that you have to
buy them in batches >30 to get down to a reasonable price. U-blox seems
to have taken the stance, that small buyers are not really benefitial to
their business (which is understandable when you can sell millions of
pieces on the chinese market). But they nevertheless support these small
buyers trough their webshop where you can buy single pieces (which is far
better than most manufacturers who do not sell single pieces at all).
Sounds like a time-nuts group buy?

I would be interested...

Greetings,
Pieter.
Post by Attila Kinali
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Chris Albertson
2013-03-18 20:53:30 UTC
Permalink
It you want a current technology timing GPS with support and a
warranty and just need one unit, you can get these for about $60.
The specs in the PDF below say it is pretty good. You have to call
and ask for the special evaluation prices and say how you heard about
it. The receivers are easy to use, all the connections are on one
header pin.
http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/m12mt_brochure.pdf



On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 1:21 AM, Pieter ten Pierick
Post by Pieter ten Pierick
Hi,
Post by Attila Kinali
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:51:53 +0100 (CET)
Post by h***@public.gmane.org
NEO-6M buy for less than $ 10 including shipping from China,
NEO-6T is unfortunately expensive, and frankly I do not know who sells it
for at least a little reasonable prices.
The -T models are not that expensive. The problem is that you have to
buy them in batches >30 to get down to a reasonable price. U-blox seems
to have taken the stance, that small buyers are not really benefitial to
their business (which is understandable when you can sell millions of
pieces on the chinese market). But they nevertheless support these small
buyers trough their webshop where you can buy single pieces (which is far
better than most manufacturers who do not sell single pieces at all).
Sounds like a time-nuts group buy?
I would be interested...
Greetings,
Pieter.
Post by Attila Kinali
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Attila Kinali
2013-03-20 12:48:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:21:57 +0100
Post by Pieter ten Pierick
Post by Attila Kinali
The -T models are not that expensive. The problem is that you have to
buy them in batches >30 to get down to a reasonable price. U-blox seems
to have taken the stance, that small buyers are not really benefitial to
their business (which is understandable when you can sell millions of
pieces on the chinese market). But they nevertheless support these small
buyers trough their webshop where you can buy single pieces (which is far
better than most manufacturers who do not sell single pieces at all).
Sounds like a time-nuts group buy?
Tried that a year or two ago. Did even get a "special" price from u-blox
that would usually need higher volumes, but it didn't take off.

Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
Herbert Poetzl
2013-03-20 17:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Attila Kinali
On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:21:57 +0100
Post by Pieter ten Pierick
Post by Attila Kinali
The -T models are not that expensive. The problem is that you
have to buy them in batches >30 to get down to a reasonable
price. U-blox seems to have taken the stance, that small
buyers are not really benefitial to their business (which is
understandable when you can sell millions of pieces on the
chinese market). But they nevertheless support these small
buyers trough their webshop where you can buy single pieces
(which is far better than most manufacturers who do not sell
single pieces at all).
Sounds like a time-nuts group buy?
Tried that a year or two ago. Did even get a "special" price
from u-blox that would usually need higher volumes, but it
didn't take off.
Attila Kinali
May I ask, what the "special" price was, just to get the
right perspective here?

Thanks in advance,
Herbert
Post by Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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