Discussion:
WWVB Chronverter update progress
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paul swed
2018-08-25 20:35:10 UTC
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From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks yet.

I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by -14
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter and
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. Just
did not have any.

The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.

The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you do
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.

Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.

All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those
silly politicians screw with it again.

Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.

Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the output
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening on
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps
the PLL in these clocks.

Next steps

- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or below
***@30 meters.
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.

Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex
display.

Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go away.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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and follow the instructions there.
Bob kb8tq
2018-08-25 21:31:32 UTC
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Hi

You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control.

Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks yet.
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by -14
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter and
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. Just
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you do
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the output
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening on
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or below
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go away.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-25 23:00:23 UTC
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Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended for.
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control.
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work.
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-26 00:07:41 UTC
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Hi

A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn the square wave
into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply components out there that
work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d probably
use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar.

Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended for.
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control.
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work.
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-26 00:23:23 UTC
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Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall and
it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal
input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days.
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards of
each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn the square wave
into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply components out there that
work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way
to go. I’d probably
use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work.
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just
not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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paul swed
2018-08-26 00:24:12 UTC
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My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall
and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal
input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days.
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards
of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn the square wave
into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply
components out there that
work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way
to go. I’d probably
use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work.
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just
not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-26 21:52:35 UTC
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Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though they
all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall
and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal
input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days.
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards
of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn
the square wave
into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply
components out there that
work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the
way to go. I’d probably
use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
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and follow the instructions there.
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-26 22:33:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi

Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. That’s
a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO will do. What the
bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.

Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though they
all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall
and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal
input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days.
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards
of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn
the square wave
into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply
components out there that
work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the
way to go. I’d probably
use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider
chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats
reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after
setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the
frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Mike Feher
2018-08-27 11:29:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike



Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

848-245-9115



-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-***@lists.febo.com> On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-***@lists.febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress



Hi



Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.



Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days.
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time.
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-27 14:19:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. +/-
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out the
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were off
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting that
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs.
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
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and foll
Bob kb8tq
2018-08-27 14:39:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi

One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.

One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.

One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.

One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.

If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.

So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock, they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of
the deal.

Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. +/-
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out the
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were off
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting that
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs.
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high.
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer.
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power.
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
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Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com>
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Tim Shoppa
2018-08-27 15:12:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
filter (not as an oscillator).

Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can
actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an
oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a couple
seconds before dying off.).

This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more
than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using amplitude
modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses.
And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm.

It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
"loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.

Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.

Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.
So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock,
they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of
the deal.
Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight.
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out
the
Post by paul swed
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were
off
Post by paul swed
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
that
Post by paul swed
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs.
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an
OCXO
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
high.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
answer.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
power.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
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Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-27 15:57:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi

The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm
range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly rational
temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. Simply
to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would require a
bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz.

For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at least ten …
again back into the 10’s of Hz range.

The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one direction.
You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that device.

Bob
Post by Tim Shoppa
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
filter (not as an oscillator).
Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can
actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an
oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a couple
seconds before dying off.).
This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more
than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using amplitude
modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses.
And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm.
It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
"loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.
So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock,
they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of
the deal.
Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight.
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out
the
Post by paul swed
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were
off
Post by paul swed
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
that
Post by paul swed
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs.
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an
OCXO
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
high.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
answer.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
power.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away.
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator.
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions
there.
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to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com>
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
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a
paul swed
2018-08-27 22:05:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Appreciate the comments.
But back to the problem at hand.
Having a replacement for wwvb that drives cheapy wall clocks and icing on
the cake allowing phase tracking clocks to decode the time.
Fix the good clocks and the cheapies work. That said not wanting to get
crazy here.

I measured the Spectracoms and the truetimes. A signal is good if it is +/-
.6 Hz from 60 KHz.
These good receivers have very sharp large crystals as filters and I new
they were sharp. I believe the cheapies are a bit wider.
I'll have to measure them.
To work a 6 Mhz oscillator must be within +/- 60 Hz since I am dividing by
100.
Using the ppm calc at jitterlabs. The 60KHz +/- .6 Hz = .6ppm
Using the jitterlab calc again it seems a 100 ppm gives +/- 60 Hz.
Just maybe thats not as hard as I thought to achieve. Need to look and see
whats out there tcxo wise.
Looking for a temp range of 55-80 since its in a home environment.

Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm
range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly rational
temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. Simply
to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would require a
bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz.
For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at least ten …
again back into the 10’s of Hz range.
The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one direction.
You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that device.
Bob
Post by Tim Shoppa
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
filter (not as an oscillator).
Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can
actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an
oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a
couple
Post by Tim Shoppa
seconds before dying off.).
This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more
than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using
amplitude
Post by Tim Shoppa
modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses.
And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm.
It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
"loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea
how
Post by Tim Shoppa
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the
incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the
sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.
So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall
clock,
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this
is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of
the deal.
Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find
something
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight.
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out
the
Post by paul swed
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its
.05
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were
off
Post by paul swed
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
that
Post by paul swed
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not
TCXOs.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an
OCXO
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
high.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch
of
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the
tristate
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
answer.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
power.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes
away.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change
DST
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe
its
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work
because
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external
modulator.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
_______________________________________________
unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/>
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-28 01:07:09 UTC
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Hi

60,000 / 1,000,000 = 0.06

Thus, 1 ppm at 60KHz is 0.06 Hz

Nothing magic about it.

I believe you will find that all the filters are fairly similar in minimum bandwidth. Some
may have steeper skirts than others. You can only get just so narrow and still
pass the sidebands from the AM modulation. If you mess up the sidebands,
you mess up the AM demodulation. That gets you into timing errors.

If you take a look at the AM modulation “pattern” the narrowest element is 0.2
seconds. That gets you to 1/ 0.2 = 5 Hz. Since it’s square wave modulation, you
need to pass a bit more than the first sideband in the series. Something up in the
two or three range is probably the point it gets wonky from missing information.
Two harmonics gets you to 10Hz and 20Hz bandwidth. Three harmonics gets you to
15 Hz and 30 Hz minimum bandwidth.

At 60 KHz, even with large(fish) blanks, you are still stuck with crystals that have crazy
temperature coefficients. The Q goes up, but you still get a parabolic curve that moves
quite a bit compared to an AT.

Lots of fun !!!

Bob
Post by paul swed
Appreciate the comments.
But back to the problem at hand.
Having a replacement for wwvb that drives cheapy wall clocks and icing on
the cake allowing phase tracking clocks to decode the time.
Fix the good clocks and the cheapies work. That said not wanting to get
crazy here.
I measured the Spectracoms and the truetimes. A signal is good if it is +/-
.6 Hz from 60 KHz.
These good receivers have very sharp large crystals as filters and I new
they were sharp. I believe the cheapies are a bit wider.
I'll have to measure them.
To work a 6 Mhz oscillator must be within +/- 60 Hz since I am dividing by
100.
Using the ppm calc at jitterlabs. The 60KHz +/- .6 Hz = .6ppm
Using the jitterlab calc again it seems a 100 ppm gives +/- 60 Hz.
Just maybe thats not as hard as I thought to achieve. Need to look and see
whats out there tcxo wise.
Looking for a temp range of 55-80 since its in a home environment.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm
range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly rational
temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. Simply
to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would require a
bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz.
For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at least ten …
again back into the 10’s of Hz range.
The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one direction.
You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that device.
Bob
Post by Tim Shoppa
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
filter (not as an oscillator).
Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can
actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an
oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a
couple
Post by Tim Shoppa
seconds before dying off.).
This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more
than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using
amplitude
Post by Tim Shoppa
modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses.
And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm.
It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
"loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea
how
Post by Tim Shoppa
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the
incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the
sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.
So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall
clock,
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this
is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of
the deal.
Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find
something
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight.
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out
the
Post by paul swed
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its
.05
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were
off
Post by paul swed
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
that
Post by paul swed
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not
TCXOs.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm.
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an
OCXO
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide.
Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several
cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz.
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
high.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch
of
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the
tristate
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
answer.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
power.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes
away.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change
DST
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe
its
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work
because
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external
modulator.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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and fol
paul swed
2018-08-28 02:58:39 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
OK moving along.
Do have the 9.6 MHz vectron VTO all set up and working well. It outputs a 3
V clipped sine wave, cleaned up with a single 2N3904 transistor to a 74ls14
inverter. Yup going to use TTL as it turns out I did not have
correct/reasonable CMOS counters. So much for low power. Will feed a 74ls93
div 16 and then a 74ls90 div 10. The VTO is tunable and behaves well enough
with temperature change.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
60,000 / 1,000,000 = 0.06
Thus, 1 ppm at 60KHz is 0.06 Hz
Nothing magic about it.
I believe you will find that all the filters are fairly similar in minimum bandwidth. Some
may have steeper skirts than others. You can only get just so narrow and still
pass the sidebands from the AM modulation. If you mess up the sidebands,
you mess up the AM demodulation. That gets you into timing errors.
If you take a look at the AM modulation “pattern” the narrowest element is 0.2
seconds. That gets you to 1/ 0.2 = 5 Hz. Since it’s square wave modulation, you
need to pass a bit more than the first sideband in the series. Something up in the
two or three range is probably the point it gets wonky from missing information.
Two harmonics gets you to 10Hz and 20Hz bandwidth. Three harmonics gets you to
15 Hz and 30 Hz minimum bandwidth.
At 60 KHz, even with large(fish) blanks, you are still stuck with crystals that have crazy
temperature coefficients. The Q goes up, but you still get a parabolic curve that moves
quite a bit compared to an AT.
Lots of fun !!!
Bob
Post by paul swed
Appreciate the comments.
But back to the problem at hand.
Having a replacement for wwvb that drives cheapy wall clocks and icing on
the cake allowing phase tracking clocks to decode the time.
Fix the good clocks and the cheapies work. That said not wanting to get
crazy here.
I measured the Spectracoms and the truetimes. A signal is good if it is
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz from 60 KHz.
These good receivers have very sharp large crystals as filters and I new
they were sharp. I believe the cheapies are a bit wider.
I'll have to measure them.
To work a 6 Mhz oscillator must be within +/- 60 Hz since I am dividing
by
Post by paul swed
100.
Using the ppm calc at jitterlabs. The 60KHz +/- .6 Hz = .6ppm
Using the jitterlab calc again it seems a 100 ppm gives +/- 60 Hz.
Just maybe thats not as hard as I thought to achieve. Need to look and
see
Post by paul swed
whats out there tcxo wise.
Looking for a temp range of 55-80 since its in a home environment.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm
range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly rational
temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. Simply
to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would
require
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
a
bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz.
For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at
least
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
ten …
again back into the 10’s of Hz range.
The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one direction.
You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that device.
Bob
Post by Tim Shoppa
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
filter (not as an oscillator).
Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You
can
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in
an
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a
couple
Post by Tim Shoppa
seconds before dying off.).
This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a
more
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using
amplitude
Post by Tim Shoppa
modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s
pulses.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30
ppm.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
"loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also
expects
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea
how
Post by Tim Shoppa
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You
might
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the
incoming signal,
it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in
the
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
sub half ppm
range are not uncommon.
So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall
clock,
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
they aren’t phase locking
an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If
this
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
is going to feed
TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may
be
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
part of
the deal.
Bob
Post by paul swed
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find
something
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
that works without a power sucking oven.
But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators.
Mr
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Google seems to know all.
That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is
tight.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
+/-
Post by paul swed
.6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure
out
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
the
Post by paul swed
lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its
.05
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens
were
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
off
Post by paul swed
by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
that
Post by paul swed
all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not
TCXOs.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Mike Feher
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi
Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67
ppm.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what
an
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
OCXO
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
Post by paul swed
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
Post by paul swed
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a
divide.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
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Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for
the
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
de-psk-er experiments.
Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used.
Getting
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
lazy these days.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron.
Several
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
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cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
:-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
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Post by Bob kb8tq
turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there
are a
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
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Post by Bob kb8tq
lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60
KHz.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
something similar.
Bob
Post by paul swed
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
Then filter to 60 KHz.
But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
high.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Bounces around a fair amount.
There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
actually
be
Post by paul swed
phase stable.
It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms
its
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
simply
Post by paul swed
not good enough.
I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
intended
for.
Post by paul swed
Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch
of
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
coding
Post by paul swed
and doing exactly what Dave did.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and
a
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
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Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
pair
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
resistors.
Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the
tristate
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
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Post by Bob kb8tq
control.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Bob
Post by paul swed
From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for
high
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
end
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the
cheapy
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
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Post by Bob kb8tq
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
yet.
Post by paul swed
I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
with a
few
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the
carrier
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
drops
by
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
-14
Post by paul swed
db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
chronverter
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
and
Post by paul swed
it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the
normal
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
time.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
There are far better modern single supply analog gates that
will
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
work.
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Just
Post by paul swed
did not have any.
The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator.
This
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
eliminates
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
answer.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock
chip
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
that even if
you
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
do
Post by paul swed
not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time
correctly
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
after setting the time.
Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
power.
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes
away.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change
DST
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
if
those
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
silly politicians screw with it again.
Speculation
The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
stations
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
along with the time codes for them.
Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I
speculate
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All
of
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
these
clocks
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to
measure
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the
output
Post by paul swed
of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
listening
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
on
Post by paul swed
a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe
its
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
just not
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work
because
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
it
gaps
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
the PLL in these clocks.
Next steps
- Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external
modulator.
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
- Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying
at
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Mike Feher
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
or
below
Post by paul swed
- Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
-
- Box it up.
Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
panelplex
Post by paul swed
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by paul swed
display.
Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
WWVB go
away.
Post by paul swed
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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ed breya
2018-08-28 02:50:53 UTC
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Raw Message
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - I
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago -
you know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a
standard frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply
diving by 256. A quickie search for modern ones shows this as an example:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf

I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are
likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.

Ed

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paul swed
2018-08-28 03:00:34 UTC
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Ed
Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I may
also have something in the 15.360 range.
Darn soldered things to quickly. :-)
Post by ed breya
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - I
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago - you
know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard
frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by 256.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf
I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are likely
lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.
Ed
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paul swed
2018-08-28 18:54:21 UTC
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Raw Message
Well the 9.6 MHZ/160 is working really well. The vectron VTO is .032 Hz
high and when heated to 100 drops to .005 Hz.
Carrier lights turn on ASAP on the spectracoms and truetimes. So time to
add the modulator and some low pass filtering and then antennuate to
something like -60 to -70 db for the good clocks.
Then finally back to the chronverter and adding gps to it for the correct
time.
Regards
Paul
Post by paul swed
Ed
Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I may
also have something in the 15.360 range.
Darn soldered things to quickly. :-)
Post by ed breya
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - I
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago - you
know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard
frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by 256.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf
I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are
likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.
Ed
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-28 20:25:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Hi

The clock could care less if the harmonics are at -10 dbc or -100 …..

Bob
Post by paul swed
Well the 9.6 MHZ/160 is working really well. The vectron VTO is .032 Hz
high and when heated to 100 drops to .005 Hz.
Carrier lights turn on ASAP on the spectracoms and truetimes. So time to
add the modulator and some low pass filtering and then antennuate to
something like -60 to -70 db for the good clocks.
Then finally back to the chronverter and adding gps to it for the correct
time.
Regards
Paul
Post by paul swed
Ed
Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I may
also have something in the 15.360 range.
Darn soldered things to quickly. :-)
Post by ed breya
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - I
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago - you
know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard
frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by 256.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf
I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are
likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.
Ed
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and fol
paul swed
2018-08-28 20:57:47 UTC
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Yup running it without any filtering at the moment. Just completed the
modulator using a tri-state 74ls125. Works well.
But now the real test, does the symetricom lock to the chroneverter? As I
type this it just did. Running about -50 db. Now for the true time.
Regards
Paul
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
The clock could care less if the harmonics are at -10 dbc or -100 …..
Bob
Post by paul swed
Well the 9.6 MHZ/160 is working really well. The vectron VTO is .032 Hz
high and when heated to 100 drops to .005 Hz.
Carrier lights turn on ASAP on the spectracoms and truetimes. So time to
add the modulator and some low pass filtering and then antennuate to
something like -60 to -70 db for the good clocks.
Then finally back to the chronverter and adding gps to it for the correct
time.
Regards
Paul
Post by paul swed
Ed
Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I may
also have something in the 15.360 range.
Darn soldered things to quickly. :-)
Post by ed breya
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - I
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago -
you
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard
frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by
256.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf
I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are
likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.
Ed
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-28 21:04:42 UTC
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Totally locked up just fine its looking very good. What interesting is the
chronverter actually puts out the correct julien date for the old truetimes.
From this point its time to get a gps unit hooked up to the chronverter and
then filtering and an amplifier to drive a loop stick antenna. Think that
may radiate enough to cover the house.
Lastly putting the whole think in a rack unit. To hack a DC 468 case or
not. That is the question. Suspect the answer is that would look nice.
Regards
Paul
Post by paul swed
Yup running it without any filtering at the moment. Just completed the
modulator using a tri-state 74ls125. Works well.
But now the real test, does the symetricom lock to the chroneverter? As I
type this it just did. Running about -50 db. Now for the true time.
Regards
Paul
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
The clock could care less if the harmonics are at -10 dbc or -100 …..
Bob
Post by paul swed
Well the 9.6 MHZ/160 is working really well. The vectron VTO is .032 Hz
high and when heated to 100 drops to .005 Hz.
Carrier lights turn on ASAP on the spectracoms and truetimes. So time to
add the modulator and some low pass filtering and then antennuate to
something like -60 to -70 db for the good clocks.
Then finally back to the chronverter and adding gps to it for the
correct
Post by paul swed
time.
Regards
Paul
Post by paul swed
Ed
Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I
may
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
also have something in the 15.360 range.
Darn soldered things to quickly. :-)
Post by ed breya
I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common -
I
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago -
you
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard
frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by
256.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf
I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are
likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice.
Ed
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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ed breya
2018-08-28 23:11:30 UTC
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Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the
60 kHz from the 10 MHz.

For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available. Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean
it up sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as
inverters and self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine
reference to logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if
needed. And, you'd still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to
fool around with.

The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work
too. It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high
at 6 MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.

Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type
stuff - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.

Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available
for I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I
think would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before.
Each HC390 is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in
each, usable separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and
four 1/2s available.

Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF
6 MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120
kHz=2f, 120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.

Ed

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paul swed
2018-08-28 23:29:21 UTC
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Raw Message
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact
the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. Clearly
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake.
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets,
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering.
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 kHz
and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available.
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too.
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available.
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f,
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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paul swed
2018-08-29 01:33:54 UTC
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LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and
anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers.
Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it really
is time for GPS a neo.
Looking very good.
Post by paul swed
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake.
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets,
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering.
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available.
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too.
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available.
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f,
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-29 13:16:16 UTC
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Permalink
Raw Message
HI

If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the
WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the
components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal….

Bob
Post by paul swed
LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and
anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers.
Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it really
is time for GPS a neo.
Looking very good.
Post by paul swed
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake.
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets,
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering.
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available.
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too.
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available.
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f,
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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paul swed
2018-08-29 15:36:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine
actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering
plus the loops stick should do the job.
Post by Bob kb8tq
HI
If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the
WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the
components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal….
Bob
Post by paul swed
LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and
anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers.
Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it
really
Post by paul swed
is time for GPS a neo.
Looking very good.
Post by paul swed
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact
Clearly
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with
GPS
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed
time
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down.
Its
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If
it
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just
nice
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the
cake.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the
LF
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone
offsets,
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now.
Simple
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality
receivers
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any
filtering.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you
just
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make
the 60
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters
and
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And,
you'd
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work
too.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at
6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type
stuff
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6
MHz
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks
available for
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I
think
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each
HC390
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR,
BPF 6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f,
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-08-30 19:06:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator.
dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, Spectracoms
and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV.
exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should WWVB
be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by
setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case.
If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine
actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering
plus the loops stick should do the job.
Post by Bob kb8tq
HI
If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the
WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the
components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal….
Bob
Post by paul swed
LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and
anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers.
Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it
really
Post by paul swed
is time for GPS a neo.
Looking very good.
Post by paul swed
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in
fact
Clearly
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with
GPS
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed
time
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down.
Its
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If
it
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3
am
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just
nice
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the
cake.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of
the LF
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone
offsets,
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now.
Simple
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality
receivers
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any
filtering.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you
just
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make
the 60
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as
inverters and
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference
to
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And,
you'd
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would
work too.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high
at 6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type
stuff
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6
MHz
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks
available for
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I
think
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each
HC390
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR,
BPF 6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120
kHz=2f,
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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paul swed
2018-09-09 15:38:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the loop
antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. This added
a nice 6DB increase in output power as measured by a reference antenna to a
HP 3586 slvm. I did try a transformer going from 50 ohm to .75 ohm of the
antenna at 60 KHz. I fear the core material isn't correct. No matter lots
of others I can try. Looks like the signal gets through 3 walls and some 30
ft. Getting to be Gud-enuf for setting clocks in the house. Input power to
the antenna is approx -10 dbm.
Plan to run the loop in the basement and that will cover the house.
Bob you may want t reachout and get an updated software if yours is not V2.
Bad news the DC60 expects the carrier to be within =/-.5Hz at 60 KHz I
measured the tuetime and spectracoms. So I built a simple chain with
atreasonable oscillator and simple modulator. The clocks lock up solid.
Since then another time nut suggested using the common 15.36 oscillator
that divides by 256 to give 60 KHz. Boy I sure would have liked to build
the system using that simple divider chain. I used a 9.6 MHz osillator and
divided by 160. Using TTL its what I had. So I must be consuming a
mega-watt in the dividers. ;-)
The key you need real divider chain and modulator and the DC60 will be
very happy.
By the way the chronveryer puts out the Julien date so the dc60 even
displays that.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator.
dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, Spectracoms
and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV.
exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should WWVB
be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by
setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case.
If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine
actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering
plus the loops stick should do the job.
Post by Bob kb8tq
HI
If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the
WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the
components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal….
Bob
Post by paul swed
LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and
anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers.
Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it
really
Post by paul swed
is time for GPS a neo.
Looking very good.
Post by paul swed
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in
fact
Clearly
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with
GPS
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
as its designed for.
Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed
time
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and
down. Its
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way.
GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility.
Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away.
If it
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3
am
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its
just nice
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the
cake.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of
the LF
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone
offsets,
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
half zones, etc.
Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now.
Simple
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality
receivers
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any
filtering.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you
just
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
have to stick a display on at that point.
Regards
Paul
Post by ed breya
Paul,
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about
a
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make
the 60
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and
10
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up
sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as
inverters and
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference
to
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed.
And, you'd
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with.
The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then
divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would
work too.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high
at 6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily
available parts.
Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that
are
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type
stuff
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
- you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure.
Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6
MHz
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks
available for
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I
think
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each
HC390
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable
separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s
available.
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic
with
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR,
BPF 6
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120
kHz=2f,
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
Post by ed breya
120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390.
Ed
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Post by paul swed
and follow the instructions there.
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Achim Gratz
2018-09-09 17:34:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by paul swed
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the loop
antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of.
I am still a bit puzzled by this desire to feed the time in via LF
waves. Maybe WWVB clocks are more different from the MSF / DCF77 ones I
see around here than I thought. All of the ones I've looked at had a
small (but not tiny) module in them which does all the decoding and the
clock itself really only sees the decoded bits. The module typically is
only enabled around the update hour (mostly 4am, sometimes 2am) and
switched off for the rest of the day (unless they couldn't sync in the
about 15 minutes they usually keep trying). So if you really wanted to
wean these off their LF source, it would be much easier to just send the
time out via some ISM band (433MHz or 868MHz / 915MHz as appropriate for
your location) and replace the module with a different one that provides
the decoded bits these clocks expect, just from a different source.
Both the RX modules (actually I see only TX/RX combos at the usual
suspects) and the corresponding antennas (ceramic strip, helix or coil)
should fit nicely in the space formerly used up by the RX module and the
ferrite rod. You'd need another microC to convert the data or use one
of the modules that are programmable.


Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves

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paul swed
2018-09-09 20:55:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Achim
Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I don't.
They do what they do very well and consume 0 power.
Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the basement.
Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want also.
The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are
willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them
powered all the time. Many options.
But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its
nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right time
and far more accurately then my mobile phone.
Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Achim Gratz
Post by paul swed
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the
loop
Post by paul swed
antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of.
I am still a bit puzzled by this desire to feed the time in via LF
waves. Maybe WWVB clocks are more different from the MSF / DCF77 ones I
see around here than I thought. All of the ones I've looked at had a
small (but not tiny) module in them which does all the decoding and the
clock itself really only sees the decoded bits. The module typically is
only enabled around the update hour (mostly 4am, sometimes 2am) and
switched off for the rest of the day (unless they couldn't sync in the
about 15 minutes they usually keep trying). So if you really wanted to
wean these off their LF source, it would be much easier to just send the
time out via some ISM band (433MHz or 868MHz / 915MHz as appropriate for
your location) and replace the module with a different one that provides
the decoded bits these clocks expect, just from a different source.
Both the RX modules (actually I see only TX/RX combos at the usual
suspects) and the corresponding antennas (ceramic strip, helix or coil)
should fit nicely in the space formerly used up by the RX module and the
ferrite rod. You'd need another microC to convert the data or use one
of the modules that are programmable.
Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves
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Achim Gratz
2018-09-10 20:14:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by paul swed
Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I don't.
Fair enough.
Post by paul swed
They do what they do very well and consume 0 power.
Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this
line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with
another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day
shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the
transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact
that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these
clocks).
Post by paul swed
Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the basement.
Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want also.
That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your
general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null
on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it
stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks
specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I
wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to
employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of
the case.

Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want
to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and
complain about it, even when that chance is very small.
Post by paul swed
The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are
willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them
powered all the time. Many options.
Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years
ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all
show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be
readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That
was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due
to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the
master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a
set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't
even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after
the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that
they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their
modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode
easily.
Post by paul swed
But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its
nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right time
and far more accurately then my mobile phone.
That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might
be much different than what I know from my side of the pond.
Post by paul swed
Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share.
I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or
anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was
obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed critique, I
just had nothing to add to the information that was already shared. But
you seem to be offended nonetheless (ever-so-slightly), so I apologize.


Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2:
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paul swed
2018-09-10 21:50:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Achim
No offense taken and sorry if it appeared that way. The great thing about
time nuts is there is a diversity of opinions, guidance and help. I have
admired the DCF signal over the years and whats been done with it. You
mention studios and I also have been involved in Broadcast television so
appreciate time from that perspective.
My understanding is that those cheap little clock ICs handle all of the VLF
time signals. Its normally some sort of internal selection. That may or may
not be pads on the board. pretty amazing for a black glob on a board.
Its unfortunate that we may loose out wwvb. But at least direct
alternatives exist. I am fortunate to be able to actually measure radiated
levels very accurately so will respect the allowed emission levels.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Achim Gratz
Post by paul swed
Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I don't.
Fair enough.
Post by paul swed
They do what they do very well and consume 0 power.
Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this
line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with
another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day
shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the
transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact
that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these
clocks).
Post by paul swed
Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the
basement.
Post by paul swed
Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want also.
That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your
general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null
on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it
stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks
specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I
wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to
employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of
the case.
Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want
to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and
complain about it, even when that chance is very small.
Post by paul swed
The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are
willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them
powered all the time. Many options.
Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years
ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all
show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be
readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That
was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due
to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the
master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a
set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't
even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after
the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that
they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their
modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode
easily.
Post by paul swed
But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its
nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right
time
Post by paul swed
and far more accurately then my mobile phone.
That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might
be much different than what I know from my side of the pond.
Post by paul swed
Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share.
I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or
anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was
obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed critique, I
just had nothing to add to the information that was already shared. But
you seem to be offended nonetheless (ever-so-slightly), so I apologize.
Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
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paul swed
2018-09-15 23:11:31 UTC
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Hello to the group. Have actually installed the loop antenna in the
basement. Its all working.
Had to use some telephone twisted pair to feed the antenna. At 60 KHz thats
a 15 db loss.
Could easily be made up with a small audio amplifier.
Free air transmission seems to be another 50 db. Thats through a floor and
marbel kitchen counter top. The antenna touches some metal pipes at points.
But the WWVB clocks lock up very quickly. As a guess the system may be at
the 30 uv level.
May try switching to a coax feed. Not as close to the antenna but see what
it does.
wwvb version 2.0 works. Last step will be to install in a rack mount
chassis just in case that day ever comes.
Though as mentioned I sure do like the way the clocks lockup fast any time
of day.
regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
Achim
No offense taken and sorry if it appeared that way. The great thing about
time nuts is there is a diversity of opinions, guidance and help. I have
admired the DCF signal over the years and whats been done with it. You
mention studios and I also have been involved in Broadcast television so
appreciate time from that perspective.
My understanding is that those cheap little clock ICs handle all of the
VLF time signals. Its normally some sort of internal selection. That may or
may not be pads on the board. pretty amazing for a black glob on a board.
Its unfortunate that we may loose out wwvb. But at least direct
alternatives exist. I am fortunate to be able to actually measure radiated
levels very accurately so will respect the allowed emission levels.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Achim Gratz
Post by paul swed
Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I don't.
Fair enough.
Post by paul swed
They do what they do very well and consume 0 power.
Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this
line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with
another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day
shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the
transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact
that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these
clocks).
Post by paul swed
Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the
basement.
Post by paul swed
Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want also.
That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your
general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null
on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it
stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks
specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I
wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to
employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of
the case.
Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want
to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and
complain about it, even when that chance is very small.
Post by paul swed
The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are
willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them
powered all the time. Many options.
Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years
ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all
show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be
readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That
was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due
to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the
master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a
set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't
even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after
the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that
they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their
modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode
easily.
Post by paul swed
But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off
its
Post by paul swed
nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right
time
Post by paul swed
and far more accurately then my mobile phone.
That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might
be much different than what I know from my side of the pond.
Post by paul swed
Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share.
I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or
anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was
obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed critique, I
just had nothing to add to the information that was already shared. But
you seem to be offended nonetheless (ever-so-slightly), so I apologize.
Regards,
Achim.
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Bob Darlington
2018-09-10 05:12:02 UTC
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I'm happy to report my Chronverter setup at the home lab is working fine.
I'm setting my cheap wall clocks, not so cheap wrist watches, and now my
Truetime 60-DC rack mount "NBS" time display and irig-b generator.



Lock light comes on, display started after about two minutes.

I'm cheating and letting my signal generator produce the carrier and I
modulate that with the chronverter (Coff setting) and it just works till I
come up with a long term solution.

Thanks everyone.

-Bob N3XKB
Post by paul swed
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the loop
antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. This added
a nice 6DB increase in output power as measured by a reference antenna to a
HP 3586 slvm. I did try a transformer going from 50 ohm to .75 ohm of the
antenna at 60 KHz. I fear the core material isn't correct. No matter lots
of others I can try. Looks like the signal gets through 3 walls and some 30
ft. Getting to be Gud-enuf for setting clocks in the house. Input power to
the antenna is approx -10 dbm.
Plan to run the loop in the basement and that will cover the house.
Bob you may want t reachout and get an updated software if yours is not V2.
Bad news the DC60 expects the carrier to be within =/-.5Hz at 60 KHz I
measured the tuetime and spectracoms. So I built a simple chain with
atreasonable oscillator and simple modulator. The clocks lock up solid.
Since then another time nut suggested using the common 15.36 oscillator
that divides by 256 to give 60 KHz. Boy I sure would have liked to build
the system using that simple divider chain. I used a 9.6 MHz osillator and
divided by 160. Using TTL its what I had. So I must be consuming a
mega-watt in the dividers. ;-)
The key you need real divider chain and modulator and the DC60 will be
very happy.
By the way the chronveryer puts out the Julien date so the dc60 even
displays that.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator.
dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, Spectracoms
and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV.
exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should
WWVB
Post by paul swed
be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by
setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case.
If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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paul swed
2018-09-10 14:28:55 UTC
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Bob
Fantastic to hear. You did the same thing I initially did and that was to
use a fluke 6060 gen locked to a GPSDO. (Not really needed but thats the
way I am set up.) Though I went further and created a good oscillator
divide chain and real modulator.
Per Bob s suggestion nothing more then a tristate gate and resistor
dividers to create the 14 db carrier drop. Truly a few cheap and simple
chips eliminate the big generator.
Most likely all of this stuff will live in a truetime DC468 case with
display. A very good second life for the Truetime.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by Bob Darlington
I'm happy to report my Chronverter setup at the home lab is working fine.
I'm setting my cheap wall clocks, not so cheap wrist watches, and now my
Truetime 60-DC rack mount "NBS" time display and irig-b generator.
http://youtu.be/s7DwzSggQSQ
Lock light comes on, display started after about two minutes.
I'm cheating and letting my signal generator produce the carrier and I
modulate that with the chronverter (Coff setting) and it just works till I
come up with a long term solution.
Thanks everyone.
-Bob N3XKB
Post by paul swed
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the
loop
Post by paul swed
antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. This
added
Post by paul swed
a nice 6DB increase in output power as measured by a reference antenna
to a
Post by paul swed
HP 3586 slvm. I did try a transformer going from 50 ohm to .75 ohm of the
antenna at 60 KHz. I fear the core material isn't correct. No matter lots
of others I can try. Looks like the signal gets through 3 walls and some
30
Post by paul swed
ft. Getting to be Gud-enuf for setting clocks in the house. Input power
to
Post by paul swed
the antenna is approx -10 dbm.
Plan to run the loop in the basement and that will cover the house.
Bob you may want t reachout and get an updated software if yours is not
V2.
Post by paul swed
Bad news the DC60 expects the carrier to be within =/-.5Hz at 60 KHz I
measured the tuetime and spectracoms. So I built a simple chain with
atreasonable oscillator and simple modulator. The clocks lock up solid.
Since then another time nut suggested using the common 15.36 oscillator
that divides by 256 to give 60 KHz. Boy I sure would have liked to build
the system using that simple divider chain. I used a 9.6 MHz osillator
and
Post by paul swed
divided by 160. Using TTL its what I had. So I must be consuming a
mega-watt in the dividers. ;-)
The key you need real divider chain and modulator and the DC60 will be
very happy.
By the way the chronveryer puts out the Julien date so the dc60 even
displays that.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Post by paul swed
The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator.
dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time,
Spectracoms
Post by paul swed
Post by paul swed
and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV.
exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should
WWVB
Post by paul swed
be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by
setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case.
If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Larry McDavid
2018-08-27 18:26:02 UTC
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Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation
on WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on
Amazon for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are
*vastly* more sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual
experience is that these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any
time of day, completely unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks.

Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in
my home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home,
an unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to
(the inside of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the
ULTRATOMIC clocks will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere
within my home.

But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La
Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or
four C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I
installed two C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one
year. The clock can be configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of
the second hand between midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that
the clock face is large enough that I can read it without my glasses!

Look here:

https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS-UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1535393731&sr=8-3&keywords=la+crosse+ultratomic

or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon.

Tom Van Baak did a tear-down has many pictures posted on his website;
look here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/

Larry


On 8/27/2018 8:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
...
Post by Tim Shoppa
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE...
--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)

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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-27 19:21:53 UTC
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Hi

One of the “interesting” things about the phase modulation on WWVB is that it does not get converted to
AM (and thus mess things up) in the front end filters of the typical watches and clocks. The filters also do
not strip off the AM modulation sidebands of the signal. One would *guess* that the filters have to be at least
20Hz wide (+/- 10 Hz relative to 60,000 Hz) to make this happen.

Bob
Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation on WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on Amazon for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are *vastly* more sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual experience is that these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any time of day, completely unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks.
Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in my home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home, an unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to (the inside of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the ULTRATOMIC clocks will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere within my home.
But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or four C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I installed two C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one year. The clock can be configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of the second hand between midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that the clock face is large enough that I can read it without my glasses!
https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS-UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1535393731&sr=8-3&keywords=la+crosse+ultratomic
or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon.
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
Larry
...
Post by Tim Shoppa
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE...
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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paul swed
2018-08-27 22:05:19 UTC
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Well tinkering around and have 20 X 13 MHz vectron TCXOs.
I have to say impressive. Ran it from 73-100 degrees. Its starts 40 Hz low
and only moves 5 Hz over the range.
Just my luck no 12 MHz units. Though I do have a number of 9.6 Mhz vectron
and div 160 gets 60 KHz.
They are actually only VTOs and have no specs on them. But they do run at
5V with no smoke.
Will see as 160 is a number I can work with chip wise.
As I say the phase tracking clocks are tight so no wiggle room.
Did test the vectron VTO's. No markings from 73-100 degrees 6 hertz temp up
freq down.
Will have to add a pot with a stable reference for the Vtune. But appears
good enough for what I need.
One day when bored I could add a tempsnsor and opamp to correct even that.
Now to dig up the divider chips and figure out how I want to mount the VTO.

Regards
Paul.
Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
One of the “interesting” things about the phase modulation on WWVB is that
it does not get converted to
AM (and thus mess things up) in the front end filters of the typical
watches and clocks. The filters also do
not strip off the AM modulation sidebands of the signal. One would *guess*
that the filters have to be at least
20Hz wide (+/- 10 Hz relative to 60,000 Hz) to make this happen.
Bob
Post by Larry McDavid
Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation
on WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on
Amazon for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are *vastly*
more sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual experience is
that these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any time of day,
completely unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks.
Post by Larry McDavid
Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in
my home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home, an
unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to (the
inside of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the
ULTRATOMIC clocks will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere
within my home.
Post by Larry McDavid
But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La
Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or four
C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I installed two
C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one year. The clock can
be configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of the second hand
between midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that the clock face is
large enough that I can read it without my glasses!
Post by Larry McDavid
https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS-
UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&
qid=1535393731&sr=8-3&keywords=la+crosse+ultratomic
Post by Larry McDavid
or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon.
Tom Van Baak did a tear-down has many pictures posted on his website;
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
Larry
...
Post by Tim Shoppa
Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects
the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea
how
Post by Larry McDavid
Post by Tim Shoppa
it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You
might
Post by Larry McDavid
Post by Tim Shoppa
think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
Tim N3QE...
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Post by Larry McDavid
and follow the instructions there.
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Mark Sims
2018-08-29 01:52:14 UTC
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Like I mentioned before, get a $10-ish Ublox Neo7 board/antenna off of Ebay, program one of the Ublox pulse output pins for 60 kHz. Add your favorite microprocessor to talk to the Ublox and drive the modulator. The Ublox 60kHz output should be more than accurate and stable enough to do the job.

I don't know how well 77.5 kHz for DCF would work, but I suspect it might work.

----------------
Post by ed breya
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the
60 kHz from the 10 MHz.

For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available
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paul swed
2018-08-29 15:39:26 UTC
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Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious. Indeed at that
cost it would be great if it did produce 60 KHz as it would eliminate the
whole counter chain + power. The chronverter wants GPS data so its a nice
answer.
I have some 6s here so will start with that. Love low power and crazy cheap
technology.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
Post by Mark Sims
Like I mentioned before, get a $10-ish Ublox Neo7 board/antenna off of
Ebay, program one of the Ublox pulse output pins for 60 kHz. Add your
favorite microprocessor to talk to the Ublox and drive the modulator. The
Ublox 60kHz output should be more than accurate and stable enough to do the
job.
I don't know how well 77.5 kHz for DCF would work, but I suspect it might work.
----------------
Post by ed breya
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the
60 kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available
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paul swed
2018-08-29 22:36:59 UTC
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Mark
OK I did indeed find what you suggested pretty neat most likely will order
one and see whats what.
That certainly simplifies old 60 KHz and in fact may be traceable. Pretty
amazing.
Post by paul swed
Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious. Indeed at that
cost it would be great if it did produce 60 KHz as it would eliminate the
whole counter chain + power. The chronverter wants GPS data so its a nice
answer.
I have some 6s here so will start with that. Love low power and crazy
cheap technology.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
Post by Mark Sims
Like I mentioned before, get a $10-ish Ublox Neo7 board/antenna off of
Ebay, program one of the Ublox pulse output pins for 60 kHz. Add your
favorite microprocessor to talk to the Ublox and drive the modulator. The
Ublox 60kHz output should be more than accurate and stable enough to do the
job.
I don't know how well 77.5 kHz for DCF would work, but I suspect it might work.
----------------
Post by ed breya
If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a
TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the
60 kHz from the 10 MHz.
For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10
kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz
available
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Mark Sims
2018-08-29 19:42:21 UTC
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The Ublox 7 has two programmable "timepulse" outputs. The default freqs are (I think) 1 PPS and 10 MHz. I don't remember if the Ublox 6 has one or two outputs... also some of the earlier Ublox receivers have limits on the range you can set the output(s) to (like 1 kHz). Lady Heather can program the outputs (start up with /rxu to force Ublox binary mode). The pulse output control commands are in the "P" menu.

You may have to bodge a wire onto the Ublox module to get access to timepulse2 on those cheap Ublox7 boards. I bought a couple that brought TP2 out to a pad.

--------------
Post by paul swed
Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious
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Bob kb8tq
2018-08-29 20:27:14 UTC
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Hi

Even when dividing from 48 MHz straight to 60 KHz, the uBlox is going to do
a pulse drop / pulse add to keep things on frequency. For a wall clock that probably
is not an issue. For a phase locking receiver it’s not quite as clear. The 60 KHz
edge is going to hop by about 21 ns every so often. If the TCXO is running at ~0.1 ppm
high or low, it’ll do it around 5 times a second. If the newer parts run both edges or
a higher counter drive frequency, you would get more steps per second, but smaller
steps.

Bob
Post by Mark Sims
The Ublox 7 has two programmable "timepulse" outputs. The default freqs are (I think) 1 PPS and 10 MHz. I don't remember if the Ublox 6 has one or two outputs... also some of the earlier Ublox receivers have limits on the range you can set the output(s) to (like 1 kHz). Lady Heather can program the outputs (start up with /rxu to force Ublox binary mode). The pulse output control commands are in the "P" menu.
You may have to bodge a wire onto the Ublox module to get access to timepulse2 on those cheap Ublox7 boards. I bought a couple that brought TP2 out to a pad.
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Post by paul swed
Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious
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