Discussion:
Lots of Off Topic discussion
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David C. Partridge
2018-09-01 13:07:33 UTC
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Guys,

The noise level has risen rather high lately. I really think that
discussions of jamming of GPS and other systems are not relevant.

The loss of WWVx is also mostly OT as I don't believe that anyone seriously
still uses it for a time/frequency reference these days.

Dave




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David G. McGaw
2018-09-01 14:13:59 UTC
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I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic.  They may not be as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
available methods of time dissemination.  I am very concerned that
factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their
mission.

David N1HAC
Post by David C. Partridge
Guys,
The noise level has risen rather high lately. I really think that
discussions of jamming of GPS and other systems are not relevant.
The loss of WWVx is also mostly OT as I don't believe that anyone seriously
still uses it for a time/frequency reference these days.
Dave
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Brian Lloyd
2018-09-01 18:37:09 UTC
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I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that factions
of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission.
I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons:

1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
dinner.

2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
15, 20, and 25 MHz.

I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.

YMMV.
--
Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
***@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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Scott McGrath
2018-09-01 19:20:17 UTC
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I’m concerned with the science

the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data.

Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a interface for Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide network time within all national banking regulations.

As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence just how FRAGILE a system GPS is. I realize some dont want to hear this but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems using different techology bases to deliver precise time and frequency in an economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s.

As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align the PTO, even know about WWV.

Most of the WWV users I know personally are atmospheric scientists, military and other government users.



Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that factions
of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission.
I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons:

1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
dinner.

2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
15, 20, and 25 MHz.

I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.

YMMV.
--
Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
***@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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William H. Fite
2018-09-01 21:04:55 UTC
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With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV.
Post by Scott McGrath
I’m concerned with the science
the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition
of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data.
Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a interface for
Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide
network time within all national banking regulations.
As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users
like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence
just how FRAGILE a system GPS is. I realize some dont want to hear this
but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems
using different techology bases to deliver precise time and frequency in an
economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s.
As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are
running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align
the PTO, even know about WWV.
Most of the WWV users I know personally are atmospheric scientists,
military and other government users.
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw <
I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that
factions
of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission.
1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
dinner.
2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
15, 20, and 25 MHz.
I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.
YMMV.
--
Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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Don
2018-09-01 23:02:49 UTC
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Try receiving wwv or wwvb with your HP3586 SLV and determine precisely
where f(o) is.
It's difficult, ...as propagation and atmospheric conditions will
unwittingly prevail.
This ham prefers my gpsdo's, or my cesium.
Don
N5CID
=================================================================
Post by William H. Fite
With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV.
Post by Scott McGrath
I’m concerned with the science
the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition
of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data.
Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a
interface for
Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide
network time within all national banking regulations.
As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users
like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence
just how FRAGILE a system GPS is.    I realize some dont want to
hear this
but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems
using different techology bases to deliver precise time and
frequency in an
economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s.
As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are
running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align
the PTO,  even know about WWV.
Most of the WWV users  I know personally are atmospheric
scientists,
military and other government users.
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw <
I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic.  They may not be
as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are
publicly
available methods of time dissemination.  I am very concerned
that
factions
of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission.
1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20
shortwave
receiver.  No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most
things
that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
dinner.
2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
15, 20, and 25 MHz.
I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant
because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.
YMMV.
--
Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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Peter Laws
2018-09-01 18:02:35 UTC
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On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM David G. McGaw
available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that
factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their
mission.
1) WWV* systems are not critical to anything I have found other than
WWVB being used to keep "atomic clocks" in sync and updated for DST.
I've asked in many places but other than two recent papers that used
WWV HF signals with the Long Wavelength Array to do some ionospheric
measurements I can't find any evidence that the signals are critical
to anything in science.

2) Anyone that *needs* accurate time to within a few ms of UTC uses
NTP. Anyone who thinks they need more precision than that can look at
PTP (usually deciding that NTP is plenty good once they see what it
will cost them for PTP). All current consumer operating systems (OS
X, iOS, Android, Windows, etc) have some form of NTP client built in.

3) Is no one familiar with the US federal budgeting process? Really?
The executive branch (Commerce is a cabinet-level department therein)
submits to the legislative branch the budget for what they claim they
will need for the upcoming fiscal year. This is made up from
estimates of each cabinet member (and others) who get their numbers
from the various institutions within their silos (e.g., NIST under
Commerce). Because no department head wants their budget cut, they
ensure that items put up for "cutting" are ones that the public is
most likely to complain (to congress) about. A quick google didn't
tell me when the executive branch last submitted a budget that was
actually in balance but I'm sure it's been 35 years at least despite
the alleged cutting. And it doesn't matter because the executive
budget is routinely ignored by the body that is actually in charge of
spending, congress.

4) I don't think I've ever seen an NTP server that used WWV* as their
reference clock (it's listed in the output of the query command)
because GPS is ubiquitous. "Yeah, but Carrington!" I am not certain,
but given that in the US, the Navstar GPS is a US military system run
by the US military for US military purposes (which happens to have a
signal available to civilians) that the designers were not only aware
of solar physics but used that awareness to make the GPS system as
resilient as they could to the potential effects of CMEs and flares.
So for me, the "GPS COULD FAIL!" argument does nothing.



I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements. Or
proper care and feeding of your Cs oscillator.



--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Bob kb8tq
2018-09-02 00:24:33 UTC
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Hi

I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay”
number into their config file with the wrong sign on it (or there was a bug in
the NTP code at that time). The result was that they were …. errr …. a bit
off time.

So yes, you *can* hook NTP into WWVB, it has been done. It is a way (if you get
the signs right ….) to get into millisecond(s) level accuracy.

Bob
Post by Peter Laws
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM David G. McGaw
available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that
factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their
mission.
1) WWV* systems are not critical to anything I have found other than
WWVB being used to keep "atomic clocks" in sync and updated for DST.
I've asked in many places but other than two recent papers that used
WWV HF signals with the Long Wavelength Array to do some ionospheric
measurements I can't find any evidence that the signals are critical
to anything in science.
2) Anyone that *needs* accurate time to within a few ms of UTC uses
NTP. Anyone who thinks they need more precision than that can look at
PTP (usually deciding that NTP is plenty good once they see what it
will cost them for PTP). All current consumer operating systems (OS
X, iOS, Android, Windows, etc) have some form of NTP client built in.
3) Is no one familiar with the US federal budgeting process? Really?
The executive branch (Commerce is a cabinet-level department therein)
submits to the legislative branch the budget for what they claim they
will need for the upcoming fiscal year. This is made up from
estimates of each cabinet member (and others) who get their numbers
from the various institutions within their silos (e.g., NIST under
Commerce). Because no department head wants their budget cut, they
ensure that items put up for "cutting" are ones that the public is
most likely to complain (to congress) about. A quick google didn't
tell me when the executive branch last submitted a budget that was
actually in balance but I'm sure it's been 35 years at least despite
the alleged cutting. And it doesn't matter because the executive
budget is routinely ignored by the body that is actually in charge of
spending, congress.
4) I don't think I've ever seen an NTP server that used WWV* as their
reference clock (it's listed in the output of the query command)
because GPS is ubiquitous. "Yeah, but Carrington!" I am not certain,
but given that in the US, the Navstar GPS is a US military system run
by the US military for US military purposes (which happens to have a
signal available to civilians) that the designers were not only aware
of solar physics but used that awareness to make the GPS system as
resilient as they could to the potential effects of CMEs and flares.
So for me, the "GPS COULD FAIL!" argument does nothing.
I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements. Or
proper care and feeding of your Cs oscillator.
--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
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Peter Laws
2018-09-02 03:59:44 UTC
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Post by Bob kb8tq
I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay”
I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in
the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with
NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used
as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were
many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference
implementation back in the 1980s but not now.

I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent,
evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to
keep my powder dry.
--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Tim Shoppa
2018-09-02 13:48:21 UTC
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Some stats in historic NTP surveys show that WWV and WWVB based refclocks
were relevant 20+ years ago:

1997 - Mills survey - 47 GPS and GOES vs 74 WWV and WWVB.

1999 - Minar MIT survey - 129 GPS and GOES vs 24 WWV and WWVB.

In those two years it is pretty obvious the world was swinging from LF and
HF refclocks to satellite based refclocks (and also obvious that GOES was
declining while GPS was on the upswing.)

As recently as 10 years ago I was running a WWV-based Stratum 1 - it's
there in the 2005 Brazillian NTP survey data.

It would be much easier to make a case for continuing WWV service if there
were commercial WWV based refclocks on the market and used in
commercial/government applications. 10 years ago I could find WWV time
clocks in industrial automation catalogs but today, nothing. I'm sure
there's some installed base.

Tim N3QE
Post by Bob kb8tq
Post by Bob kb8tq
I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and
relayed
Post by Bob kb8tq
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the
“delay”
I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in
the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with
NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used
as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were
many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference
implementation back in the 1980s but not now.
I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent,
evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to
keep my powder dry.
--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
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Björn
2018-09-02 14:18:32 UTC
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Hi,

There are LF receivers available commercially today. See links below for one vendor.
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/pci-express-dcf77-clock.htm

and even an USB version for the NIST signal.

https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/usb-wwvb-clock.htm

And there seems to be options for wwvb reception also in 1u 19” format.

https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/rack-mount-1u-ntp-server.htm

/Björn

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Tim Shoppa
Some stats in historic NTP surveys show that WWV and WWVB based refclocks
1997 - Mills survey - 47 GPS and GOES vs 74 WWV and WWVB.
1999 - Minar MIT survey - 129 GPS and GOES vs 24 WWV and WWVB.
In those two years it is pretty obvious the world was swinging from LF and
HF refclocks to satellite based refclocks (and also obvious that GOES was
declining while GPS was on the upswing.)
As recently as 10 years ago I was running a WWV-based Stratum 1 - it's
there in the 2005 Brazillian NTP survey data.
It would be much easier to make a case for continuing WWV service if there
were commercial WWV based refclocks on the market and used in
commercial/government applications. 10 years ago I could find WWV time
clocks in industrial automation catalogs but today, nothing. I'm sure
there's some installed base.
Tim N3QE
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Artek Manuals
2018-09-02 13:53:30 UTC
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Does any one know what the line item $$$ amount is for the WWV/WWVB
operating budget?

-DC
NR1DX
Post by Peter Laws
Post by Bob kb8tq
I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay”
I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in
the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with
NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used
as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were
many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference
implementation back in the 1980s but not now.
I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent,
evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to
keep my powder dry.
--
Dave
***@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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Bob kb8tq
2018-09-02 14:45:09 UTC
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Hi

The referenced line item is $6.8 million a year. It is still very much unclear if that is just WWV(H)
(from the reference it must include them) or if it also includes WWWVB. Without any clarification,
we are only guessing about WWVB. Given the way the budget process works, there’s never a
lot of clarity at this point.

Bob
Does any one know what the line item $$$ amount is for the WWV/WWVB operating budget?
-DC
NR1DX
Post by Peter Laws
Post by Bob kb8tq
I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay”
I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in
the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with
NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used
as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were
many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference
implementation back in the 1980s but not now.
I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent,
evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to
keep my powder dry.
--
Dave
www.ArtekManuals.com
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Mark Sims
2018-09-01 21:35:48 UTC
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Me too... that's why Lady Heather can calculate and plot solid earth tide displacements. Also the vertical offset in gravity due to solar/lunar tidal effects.

-------------
Post by Peter Laws
I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements.
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