[time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit

[c***@juno.com]

Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Left to right:

Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell
cell oven cylinder/cavity
Rb87 resonance cell

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Corby

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

--------

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Nice!

Post by c***@juno.com
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell

It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
between the reflector and the filter cell ?

I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.

Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
a linear relationship.

If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.

A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
is a nice bonus.

If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
lower in a matter of minutes.

Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Indeed very cool pictures.

If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike voltage” required
to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some temperature
dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.

Bob

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
--------

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Nice!

Post by c***@juno.com
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell

It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
between the reflector and the filter cell ?
I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
a linear relationship.
If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.
A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
is a nice bonus.
If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
lower in a matter of minutes.
Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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[paul swed]

Wow on the right, is that the lamp?
Thats one large lamp to light. I am use to the little capsules about the
size of a pr-1 light bulb.
This is a keeper picture.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Indeed very cool pictures.
If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike voltage” required
to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some temperature
dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.
Bob

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
--------

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Nice!

Post by c***@juno.com
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell

It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
between the reflector and the filter cell ?
I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
a linear relationship.
If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.
A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
is a nice bonus.
If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
lower in a matter of minutes.
Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by

incompetence.

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
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Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
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[paul swed]

Should have carefully read Corby's comment.
Lamps left.

Post by paul swed
Wow on the right, is that the lamp?
Thats one large lamp to light. I am use to the little capsules about the
size of a pr-1 light bulb.
This is a keeper picture.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

Post by Bob kb8tq
Hi
Indeed very cool pictures.
If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike voltage” required
to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some temperature
dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.
Bob

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
--------

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Nice!

Post by c***@juno.com
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell

It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
between the reflector and the filter cell ?
I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
a linear relationship.
If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.
A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
is a nice bonus.
If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
lower in a matter of minutes.
Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by

incompetence.

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
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Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
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[Mark Goldberg]

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.

I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.

Regards,

Mark
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[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:49 -0700

Post by Mark Goldberg
I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.

It's >30dB for broadband noise, according to Gerhard Hoffmann's measurement:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N07/24070698809/in/album-72157662535945536/

Attila Kinali

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

--------

Post by Attila Kinali
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:49 -0700

Post by Mark Goldberg
I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.

Just to point out that you are rapidly heading down a blind alley from
where this topic started:

I was talking about driving the single-transistor UHF generator which
ionizes the Rb in the lamp, so far I have not even established if
this voltage affects the HP5065 performance in the first place.

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:37:53 +0000

Post by Poul-Henning Kamp
I was talking about driving the single-transistor UHF generator which
ionizes the Rb in the lamp, so far I have not even established if
this voltage affects the HP5065 performance in the first place.

Oops... sorry, I missed that piece of context.
Yes, it is very unlikely that the noise of lamp power supply
would affect anything. At most, I could imagine that the frequency
drift of the lamp oscillator could maybe have some effects, but
even that is rather unlikely or swamped by other disturbances.

Attila Kinali

[Dana Whitlow]

I'm curious:

Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?

And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
or by capacitive electrodes?

Thanks,

Dana

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell
cell oven cylinder/cavity
Rb87 resonance cell
Enjoy!
Cheers,
Corby
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[paul swed]

Its RF and mag loop.

Post by Dana Whitlow
Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?
And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
or by capacitive electrodes?
Thanks,
Dana

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell
cell oven cylinder/cavity
Rb87 resonance cell
Enjoy!
Cheers,
Corby
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

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[paul swed]

Corby
Really appreciate the pix.
Curious. How hard was it to open the oven up and then is it equally
reasonable to re-assemble it.
I will guess its reasonable since you insert the filter into the system.
Really curious do you see the bulb darken as if the RB is plating out?
Thats what I see on older small FE RB's.
Thank you.
Paul
WB8TSL

Post by paul swed
Its RF and mag loop.

Post by Dana Whitlow
Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?
And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
or by capacitive electrodes?
Thanks,
Dana

Post by c***@juno.com
Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.
Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell
cell oven cylinder/cavity
Rb87 resonance cell
Enjoy!
Cheers,
Corby
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

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[c***@juno.com]

Paul,

You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!

It's never going to operate again.

If you look at the lamp in the PIX you will see a white coil wrapped
around the bulb.

This is the tank for the 90Mhz drive and it sits cocked at a 45 degree
angle.

The lamp assy can be removed easily via 3 small screws and repaired or
modified.

The Lamp circuit is designed to put out a bit higher RF level and once
the lamp starts it drops down a bit.

I would question re-engineering the lamp circuit as it can easily reach
1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec stability and 5X10-14th at 100 Sec. with the
filter mod.

Unless you have a maser or BVA to compare against how will you know if
any modifications are going to help or hurt?

The only thing I replace even if it measures OK is the 1.33K resistor as
it will "crack" eventually and change value.

A 1.3K 5% 1W metal oxide works well.

Cheers,

Corby

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[paul swed]

Corby no intent to rework the bulb.
Its just I have had good success with bulbs from the FE-XXXX series when
they fail to operate by heating the bulb to re-vaporize the "Stuff" that
plates out. Wasn't sure if this would be an approach on the 5065 when that
day comes for mine.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

Post by c***@juno.com
Paul,
You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
It's never going to operate again.
If you look at the lamp in the PIX you will see a white coil wrapped
around the bulb.
This is the tank for the 90Mhz drive and it sits cocked at a 45 degree
angle.
The lamp assy can be removed easily via 3 small screws and repaired or
modified.
The Lamp circuit is designed to put out a bit higher RF level and once
the lamp starts it drops down a bit.
I would question re-engineering the lamp circuit as it can easily reach
1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec stability and 5X10-14th at 100 Sec. with the
filter mod.
Unless you have a maser or BVA to compare against how will you know if
any modifications are going to help or hurt?
The only thing I replace even if it measures OK is the 1.33K resistor as
it will "crack" eventually and change value.
A 1.3K 5% 1W metal oxide works well.
Cheers,
Corby
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[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800

Post by c***@juno.com
You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
It's never going to operate again.

Why not? Is there something you had to break to open it up this far?

Attila Kinali

[Scott McGrath]

WRT Rb on the envelope, the 5065A has a built in 'cold trap' to recover the Rb into the reservoir, Instructions on use are in the manual

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Attila Kinali <***@kinali.ch> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800

Post by c***@juno.com
You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
It's never going to operate again.

Why not? Is there something you had to break to open it up this far?

Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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[c***@juno.com]

Attila,

The Child and oven windings were destroyed pulling the oven cylinders out
of the potting.

I suppose you could replicate them and try to repot but I'm never going
to try!

Cheers,

Corby
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